Is anyone here familiar with The Zeitgeist Movement?
If not, here is the mission:
Founded in 2008, The Zeitgeist Movement is a sustainability advocacy organization, which conducts community based activism and awareness actions through a network of global/regional chapters, project teams, annual events, media and charity work.
The movement's principle focus includes the recognition that the majority of the social problems that plague the human species at this time are not the sole result of some institutional corruption, absolute scarcity, a political policy, a flaw of "human nature" or other commonly held assumptions of causality. Rather, the movement recognizes that issues such as poverty, corruption, pollution, homelessness, war, starvation and the like appear to be "symptoms" born out of an outdated social structure.
While intermediate reform steps and temporal community support are of interest to the movement, the defining goal is the installation of a new socioeconomic model based upon technically responsible resource management, allocation and design through what would be considered the scientific method of reasoning problems and finding optimized solutions.
This “Natural Law/Resource-Based Economy" (NLRBE) is about taking a direct technical approach to social management as opposed to a monetary or even political one. It is about updating the workings of society to the most advanced and proven methods known, leaving behind the damaging consequences and limiting inhibitions which are generated by our current system of monetary exchange, profit, business and other structural and motivational issues.
The movement is loyal to a train of thought, not figures or institutions. The view held is that through the use of socially targeted research and tested understandings in science and technology, we are now able to logically arrive at societal applications that could be profoundly more effective in meeting the needs of the human population, increasing public health. There is little reason to assume war, poverty, most crime and many other monetarily-based scarcity effects common in our current model cannot be resolved over time. The range of the movement's activism and awareness campaigns extend from short to long term, with methods based explicitly on non-violent methods of communication.
The Zeitgeist Movement has no allegiance to country or traditional political platforms. It views the world as a single system and the human species as a single family and recognizes that all countries must disarm and learn to share resources and ideas if we expect to survive in the long run. Hence, the solutions arrived at and promoted are in the interest to help everyone on Earth, not a select group.
The book is available to download for free at http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/orientation .. or a hard copy can be purchased (non-profit, of course) here http://www.amazon.com/Zeitgeist-Movement-Defined-Realizing-Thought/dp/14...
I assume most Atheists ended up as Atheists by thinking logically? Well logic is basically what the movement is based on, I think the Atheist Republic should be fully supporting TZM, and make it known. Anyone agree?
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I have heard mention of it but never heard what your saying here I will look into it later and get back to you. Maybe in few days or so, going to the beach today after I get some work done and catch some zzzzs.
Ok, I have been putting this off long enough I went on vacation am I'm back now, so as promised about a half month ago I will try to look into this over the weekend. I just didn't want to say anything without knowing what I was talking about.
Haha all good. Hope you enjoyed your vacation :)
.. I have to say it's great to hear someone step up and say they don't know about something, and they're not gunna comment till they do. We need more people like you man!
Cool cool, there's always the website to check out too, the FAQ and forums there might help clear up any thoughts or questions you have.. If you wanna watch the movies, I recommend not bothering with the first one and just watch the last two; Zeitgeist Addendum and Zeitgeist: Moving Forward.. But again, they are not directly linked to the movement, though the train of thought brought about by the them is. There's a lot to learn, so don't go hammering it too hard or you could bog yourself down.
.. I'm not going to lie, when you get to fully understand just why the world is the way it is it can be hard to deal with, almost depressing. But in the best possible way! Because it's only once you realize just how badly we're fucking ourselves that you really start to understand what has to be done, and how it could be done, and of course that it IS possible!
Any thoughts or questions, I'm here
Cool, So far I have gotten to page 49 of the download you linked to and I have to say it reminds me of something I wanted to start about 16 years ago and wanted to call the Balancist Movement. The heart of idea was to use what was available to us in order to solve world problems. I actually want it to be a religion because of many things pointed out by the Zietgeist movement simply to separate it from politics and grant it certain liberties churches are granted. My fatehr and now still current girlfriend convinced me the religious direction was a bad direction to take it. I would annoyingly not ever stop finding ways to bring it into the conversation and then launch my diatribe. I actually have a lot of experience in trying to debate things like what I have seen in the first 49 pages. I think the Idea is great and is geared toward a future the world is currently already being set up for by the powers that already exist and know they cannot maintain things the way they are. However, with society the way it is now it will surely have some serious hurdles to pass before it can get to what appears so far to be the goal of this movement. I do however like what I am reading so far. For now I feel page 49 is a good place to take a break. More to come in the future as I read more.
Glad you're liking it :) and that you have previously had thoughts of your own towards the same direction. I personally think everyone has before, because it comes down to logic, and I believe we all have the ability to think logically, and therefore have done, and therefore have thought of this.
.. For me, when I was growing up, I started figuring out how messed up the world really was, I knew massive change was needed but didn't know where to start to think about how we're gunna change it, or what we're going to change in to! But I did realize that no political movement, religious notions or feeble alterations to the system would ever make any real difference, we're gunna have to change everything. But sadly, and by my own family, I was told that to think that way is 'unrealistic' .. Now I realize it's the most honest and realistic train of thought a man can follow if he truly wants to be part of the creation of a better world. So here I am :)
And yea, we got hurdles to jump alright. But I honestly believe bringing about the big change won't be as hard as some may think. It's all down to education. basically, the more people that come to understand the train of thought promoted by TZM the more people will be ready for it. That's why it may seem like I'm not doing much to help the world, but to spread the word of this is without question the most active a person can be in the pursuit of real change.. Fuck tip toeing around the system to try help a few kids here and a few kids there. It's time for humanity to rise above this malevolent system once and for all and remind ourselves; we are as free as we choose to be.
I am in about a hundred pages now and still not seeing much I disagree with. So far it is pretty much in line with my thoughts and the thoughts of some world's governing powers minus the government.. I hope you find some hope in me seeing the world going in this direction. Of course there will be growing pains but its happening and can't really happen all at once.
I'm finding the Karl Marx stuff interesting... I am very into macro economics, have you ever read The Wealth of Nations by Adams Smith?
Don't let people get you down and never let someone tell you something isn't possible or will never happen easpeacially when it come to making the world better. My only qualm so far is different people have diffiernt opinions of what better is...
Embrace realism but only take what is useful from negativity!
Good on ya! Wish I had more time to read it, you'll be overtaking me soon! Between work, keeping my girlfriend happy, keeping in touch with friends and family, chattin on here and relaxing I'm lucky to get an hour a week to read!
Yea well the single main governing force in this world is of course; business. And business is owned and controlled by cooperation's which are invariably owned by the banks. The banks are nothing more than a fraudulent business. They create money out of thin air, loan it out with interest attached, then sit back and collect. It's such a blatant and obvious scam it really does baffle me how it's come this far. What surprises me more is how so many people don't understand, and don't care to understand, how banks work. Too busy trying to make money to put in the bank I guess!
.. N yea growing pains will occur, for people like me the pains are happening now. When one tries to talk truth and reason and logic and all just to try to help others see this world for what it really is, just to get ridiculed or ignored, the deep pain I feel is overwhelming. It's like watching a blind man walk towards a busy road, you try telling him of the dangers and offer to help him across but he refuses and calls you a weirdo, that's not the painful part. The painful part is knowing that he's gunna keep walking, and eventually the inevitable will happen.
.. But yea transition will be messy, no-one is saying it's gunna be easy, they are sayin it will be worth it. There's no easy way to do some things, like telling an old man who's spent most his life working that it's all been for nothing. This is, unfortunately, the harsh reality.
I haven't read 'The Wealth of Nations" no.. I don't really feel the need to either because I know it's all based on the system rules, therefore it's just as imaginary as the system itself.
O I don't listen to the nay-sayers mate. One thing you'll find when talking about TZM with people is; those who are negative towards it, don't know much about it. They'll say crazy things like "o yea so get rid of money and let robots rule the world?!" Yep, it's been said to me on more than one occasion. Madness. And a clear example of their lack of knowledge on the subject. My advice (if you are gunna talk to people about it, which I reckon you will feel the need to once you fully understand it) is; know when to walk away. Some people simply will not listen. And you can't really tell people about this, you have to encourage them to learn about it and figure it out for themselves. Which is the purpose of this thread. And it's working with you :D
.. And yea, better can mean different things for different people. I use it in the broadest sense of the term. Some things are unarguable (didn't realize that was a word til now!) .. For example. A group of 50 men could build 10 houses, with a few imperfections, in a week. One machine could build hundreds of houses, without a single mistake, in a day. The machine is the better way to go.. We CAN feed and house every person on the planet, that is the better world I speak of. No-one can argue that a world where everyone has a home, access to an abundance of the necessities of life, access to the internet and free clean electricity is not better than how we currently live.
I hear ya on embracing realism, but I'm not sure what's useful to take from negativity?
I read a real lot so I read really fast I guess, each 50 pages take me about 15 minutes.
Big Business does not rule the world today its definitely used to rule the world and manipulate the people these days. Banks are just a tool, politicians are tools too. Those who rule the world are so powerful they don't need money.
I meant growing pains for the future which is happening whether people want it to or not. You say people Say "o yea so get rid of money and let robots rule the world?!" What these people don't get is it s happening whether they want it to or whether they are ready for it to or not. The whole world and the way we behave is making it so. Some people are not willing to give up everything they have worked all their lives for yet. They are not ready to shift their mindset and they would rather die than see the world change form how they understand it to be, their reality shattered. The UN and CFR are already quite aware of all this and basically they know there is a big change coming but are trying to keep the bloodshed and transition to a minimum before the shit hits the fan. However they are still getting ready no matter how much they quell it, shit is still going to hit and it going to be big. There are certain groups around the world which can be split into 3 major groups that simply no way to coexist at the rate things are deteriorating in the future some for reasons of not being willing to embrace the inevitable future.
You shouldn't be so down on the Wealth of Nations, it is a very interesting though dry read and it helps one to understand, with a lot of common sense things, we have all heard, when put together, what exactly Macro economics are and how they effect everything. Adams Smith was considered the grandfather of Macro economics. He was kind of a racist jerk from England in teh 1700s but its still worth reading his book to understand how macro economics work.
As far as talking to people about it goes, I have never before now looked into the TZM but I have really tried in the past to explain everything I am reading, I have had the same general opinions on everything I have read so far for a long time. I believe automation is the way of the future I believe a socialized society is the way of the future. I rally don't see any better solution to the worlds problems. I have been into automation for a long time. I am aware and have been for a long time so even it you tried to convince me there would be no need. I find people who are how can I put this nicely, not aware have been living under a rock. I am however enjoying reading about the TMZ and what so far I have read.
Machines are efficient things humanity as a whole automatically slowly adjust to be more efficient.. Things that don't do so die and wither. I had my big mental break or enlightenment when Katrina hit the gulf and 90% of all business in the gulf was wiped out. A year later almost all the businesses had been built back but 80 percent of the jobs were automated so the people who had jobs before were replaced.
I started researching into these concept after reading an excerpt from Woodrow Wilson's The new Freedom:
"Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of somebody, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."
in that same piece there is this,
"A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is privately concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men ... [W]e have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated, governments in the civilized world—no longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and the duress of small groups of dominant men."
Realism is obvious negativity is useful as a study into a certain type of realism you can learn a lot about those who will stand in your way from it.
Wow! That's an impressive reading speed!
I disagree mate, I think it's all just a business.. "The people who rule the world are so powerful they don't need money" .. On the contrary, they would be completely powerless without money.
Ah yea you're so fuckin right on that one, and that's exactly what I try to explain to people. Technology is going to continue to advance and that's something that should be fully embraced, not feared. BUT as long as we remain within this system, it IS something to fear. The single worst thing about money is that it puts power in the hands of the wrong people, and that is, always has been, and always will be something to be very afraid of. Everyone knows this. The common phrase "money is the root of all evil" doesn't seem to sink in with people. It's as simple as; yup, money is the root of all evil, so lets get rid of it!
.. But yea you're right; massive changes are coming whether the majority is ready or not. The only real choice we have is how we are going to adjust to these changes.. It's true, some people will not give up what they have grown to hold dear, it's understandable of course, we all have sentimental attachments. But I think (well, hope) when people understand the severity of our situation it will be a little easier to let go of things.. Here's a link to an interesting article about a problem we are facing, you might be familiar with the term "future shock"? .. http://www.wakingtimes.com/2014/02/28/future-shocked/
No promises on reading The Wealth of Nations, but maybe. I already have my next book ready to read after TZM Defined though. Here's a great lil 30 minute show (the second in a series of six) from the creator of the Zeitgeist movies, interesting to hear what he has to say about economics. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEC0GT_8l_I .. the whole series really is brilliant and well worth a watch :)
I understand and am glad to hear you have already been trying to spread the word on this, and I can totally relate. Why it's good to be in the know about TZM is because it is the single most logical and well thought-out idea to really bring about the change tht so many desire, and talk about and think about but don't know where to start. TZM is not the solution, but a great first step towards a new future for humanity. It's that or, well, this, and I'm sure you'll agree, the thought of remaining within this system is frightening to say the least.
.. Right exactly yes, automation is happening whether we like it or not too. The jobs lost are NOT coming back, and more will keep disappearing too, and people just get it why this is happening! Technological unemployment is real and isn't going to stop. That's another reason why we need a shift in peoples value systems so desperately. The least jobs we have to do should be celebrated as a good thing, which it literally is. Instead we have people who think we should stop inventing and creating just to preserve our jobs, which the vast majority of serve no real purpose in terms of real progress on this planet.
Right, let's try n snap you out of this conspiratorial mindset you have on the rulers of the world.. I know you disagree for now, but try to rethink it through; it's a business my friend. A game. And like any game you have some players better than others. Sure, in this game if you want to be really successful you have to be ruthless, you have to lie and deceive, cheat and steal, you have to completely detach emotion.. Indeed there is a secret group, call them what you will, I call them "the ultimate cowards" (the UC for short.) A group who's priority above everything else is there secrecy, next is their dominance. It's very likely that Adam Smith was a member by the way.. And yes these people have conspired and lied and cheated and hidden like cowards all the way through, and since they are the richest people in the world, a lot of the decisions they make regarding what areas their money will be spread does effect pretty much the entire world. Please realize, this does not mean they rule the world. They control a lot of money, which controls a lot of things. Think about it, the position they hold only exists because of the system, it's a business! A game. And yes a very small group, hiding somewhere like pathetic cowards, are winning, and winning BIG TIME! .. But remember, the upper echelon of our society are conditioned and groomed in a society that reinforces their value system. They want what's best for them; and in a social system where their status is contingent on the lower class being managed and subverted, they will need to do anything to preserve their power. However, what if we could present a vision for the future that demonstrated how even the upper 1% would be better off? What if such people could understand that this social system we live in today is harming even them? There is much epidemiological / sociological / psychological evidence to suggest that even the people at the top are suffering from the current inequality (spawned by the market system) .. Another point to consider is that the ultra-rich are a tiny minority. If a significant portion of the public were to rally against them, they wouldn't stand a chance. There is much historical precedent for this. Just look at many non-violent protests that have been successful throughout history..
.. Overall, I think it is often over-estimated how much power the people at the top actually have to control things. It is very much an ethos of the current zeitgeist that the majority are powerless and cannot effect meaningful change. This is an illusion. Look at all the people in the past who have made remarkable, lasting social contributions (whether social activists, scientists, or others) in a way that has directly challenged the interests of the establishment. Gender and racial equality were successfully fought (though it's still not perfect, granted) in the past, and TZM advocates for the last form of inequality to be overcome: class.
.. Has this made you think a little differently about it?
And ah right'o, I thiiink I get ya. So study the negativity, to better understand how it manifests?
Will try to read more this week but on the subject of conspiracy, I am not conspiracy minded and honestly I am sick of people saying it. I invest for a living I know investment well and reason I am good at it is I have an accurate depiction of what's going on.
About 15 years ago about 16 percent of the worlds population was consuming 80% of the worlds natural resources At the beginning of this year (2014) the top 1 percent richest of the world's population held about half the world wealth valued at about 110 trillion. Ironically, most of the worlds wealth wealth is not held in money people at the top know better and they choose to hold natural resources instead. They control the productions of these resources as well and with them they control governments and money they make the governments make more money when it is needed. After money gets released the money flows back to them with the top 1 percent of the world wealthiest capturing 95 percent of post financial growth since the financial crisis at the end of 2008 while the 90 percent poorest lost more money or became poorer.
Your right about it being a game and your right about there beings some players who are smarter than the rest. This belief that that the money controls everything is where most people go wrong though. If you had as much money as they do you would still fall from the level of power they maintain they would make sure of it. Sure money is nice to have and it does control a lot of things but honestly is just a tool to keep the cogs moving, governments too by the way are just a tool at this point and most are set up in a way that makes it so even if you killed these upper 1% the world would wake up the next day the same as it ever was. These people own resources they send us to war to fight over them and convince us to do so willingly with propaganda they will not be happy until they have total world domination. about 4 main mega powers exist in the world currently and all are vying for one. Part of the propaganda is that money is worth more than the paper its printed on. these people literally tell nations when to make more of it. when to go to war with who, what we will use to fight these wars why we are fighting them (usually lies), who to hate, who to blame, who to think the richest people are because yes you guessed it the media is tool as well. But the game is resources.
Yo! Sorry for the long time to respond, life happens!
Great to hear you're so knowledgeable on this subject, this always makes things easier to talk about!
.. The realization I was hoping for you to arrive at (not saying you don't already know this) is that; the UC (ultimate cowards) created the game. And of course created it for them to win, more so, so that others don't even have a chance of winning. Amazing how so many believe they actually have a fare chance. The power of propaganda!
Okay yea I should have elaborated on the money point. I don't really just mean money itself, but the whole (imaginary) idea of ownership. Whether we like it or not, nothing actually belongs to any of us. You think having the money, that we made, to buy a piece of paper, that we made, that says you own a thing, that we made, means it's actually in any way "yours"? Nothing on this planet belongs to us, no more than a toy in the play ground that a child snatches and says "mine!" And what would we teach that child. You have to learn to share.
.. I understand the power the UC holds isn't in the form of money, but what they "own." But everything they own does have monetary value attached to it. Without this, they could never come to hold these things as their own. This is how and why people accept that these resources belong to them. You might have heard me say "power comes through intelligence and belief"? What I mean by this is; the more you know the more powerful you are, but this isn't always the case, sometimes people have power just because people believe they do. This is the case with the UC; people believe they own these resources, so they do! All it would take is for the world to realize that actually these resources do not belong to them, and they wouldn't any more. I think this could happen a lot easier than people think, it's all a matter of education. Always keep in mind; we outnumber these people hundreds of millions to one :) .. Their power only exists because of our belief in that power.. This applies even to them! Imagine been born into a family that "owns" the majority of the worlds resources, would it not simply become totally natural to you? You wouldn't worry about the people suffering because you would come to accept that this is just the way it is, and play your part accordingly. We're all products of our upbringing, environment and education. If I was raised to be a Nazi, for example, grew up around other Nazis and was thoroughly educated only on Nazism, I'd be a Nazi. This doesn't mean I was ever a naturally "bad" person, and the same applies for these pricks at the top. As pure evil as it is, it is all they know. They believe they have this power, and so does everyone else, so they do.
"Part of the propaganda is that money is worth more than the paper it's printed on" .. Of course. That basically is the core idea of money. But remember we're not even talking about paper any more, or gold or any other material; we're talking about digital numbers on a screen, that can be created or erased at the touch of a button. Completely valueless without our belief in them.
Yes, governments and mainstream media are mere tools, under control by the UC. But the only reason they are, is because they're getting paid enough! The only real control the UC have, is the control of these peoples bank accounts. Let's face it, as long as money exists, we're all quite easily manipulated by it.
.. There was more I wanted to say but can't remember now, how annoying! .. Any thoughts on what I've said?
How you getting on with the book? And have you watched any lectures, movies or the series?
I just got back here after being gone for some time, I will try to read more on TZM but I won't be as active on here as I have been in the past So it might be a while before you hear back on it.
Most of what you said in your last comment I can agree on. Where we differ is, who the cowards are. There is a quote that come to mind which I feel encompasses what I want to say here pretty well which is fittingly I think a play on Matthew 10:28, it goes something like this: "Fear not the person who commits crimes against humanity but rather be fearful of the masses who let them get away with it."
I never bothered learning about the movement, because the movies were so poorly done. So little reseasrch, and so many wrong claims.
The movies are an artistic impression, and are NOT actually a part of the movement. Do you not think the above mission statement sounds like a good plan?
.. The first movie is probably the most sourced movie ever made. I only watched it once tbh.Once is enough, since it is far less important than the others. I'm unsure of the wrong claims? The second and third are simply brilliant, did you even watch them? I understand how they can seem boring, but this is usually because they're not properly understood. There is also a tv style series called "Culture In Decline." 6, half hour episodes, and they are also brilliant. All available for free download or on youtube :)
.. I strongly recommend you research the subject properly and not judge an entire movement because of a movie you didn't like.
And all good Zaphod.. It certainly is an idea worth working toward :)
.. I have come to realize however that for the AR to support the movement would be a great thing, but solely for the numbers of people it could bring awareness to.. TZM is NOT an atheist movement, and in fact, if it did get confused as such a thing it could potentially be detrimental to the cause. The movement has nothing to do with religion (including atheism, not as a religion of course, since it isn't one! But just in the sense of it's place of holding a religious position, that position of course being not religious.) ..TZM is only concerned with knowledge and reason, not beliefs. And is certainly not trying to convert anyone to any religion or atheism.
.. The following was written by someone in a TZM forum, and I couldn't agree more;
I think, the primary attraction of religion is comfort and security. The simple way to avoid conflict between people of faith and people building a more scientific society is for the culture of science to be all-inclusive and completely tolerant of any religious belief that does no overt harm. When society at large offers a way of life with greater comfort and security than any religion can provide, then the attraction of religion will be greatly diminished, and eventually fade away as generations come and go.
That "way of life" he mentioned is the very purpose of The Zeitgeist Movement. Most people are not fully aware, or completely unaware of what we are actually technologically capable of today. Most don't realize that to feed and house and provide free energy to all the worlds people is actually quite easily possible, if we weren't restricted by this dangerous, outdated social system.
.. My fear when it comes to religion, is the fear that a theist could never be open-minded enough to accept the train of thought realized by TZM and so would never fully understand just how incredible life on this planet could be if we simply work together and quite frankly just stop bullshitting around! And so then, in their ignorance, become opposed to such a movement.. I say this loosely now however, since 'rasungod0' showed a fine example of how an atheist can be closed-minded :/
Sounds legit.
Really, there are some key points that I like about this. I am *all* for reevaluating the resources and needs of our society and doing away with the crippling crutch of money since that seems to be the biggest excuse for not pursuing social change.
I'd have to look into the rest of the movement to see if it's something I could really get behind, but it seems like a bold move at least, and the world could definitely use more of those.
Honestly the more you look in to it the more you come to realize that it is actually in the best interest of all humanity. It's all based on facts, true logic, and what is actually technologically possible.
.. There's never been a more logical and well thought-out idea for real global social change. So you're either pro-human or your not.
I wanna hear more people say they have at least looked in to this!!
.. Ask yourself if any of the problems we face together as a species are even really been addressed? Much less, it seems they're not even been taken seriously by the majority. We're destroying the planet, our one and only home. Over a billion of our brothers and sisters are starving, the vast majority live in poverty, and the ones that don't have become lost and unsociable. Greed and ignorance have taken control of this race, a fact missed by most is that nobody actually owns anything. Yet we go to war to say we do, war's easier to justify with a fuel source like religion. A closed set of ideas which claim to know the impossible to know.. All this is preventable, so it's time to get to work on doing so. It's time to realize there is no conspiracy, there is only business. And as long as such concepts linger as sacred, we can expect nothing more than an escalation of all the above and more.
.. We've built our own cage, been told it's a home, and accepted it as normal. It's time to change.
It does pain me to hear such negativity towards what is actually a really positive thing. The fact of the matter here is, things won't change with attitudes like that.
.. It's very much an ethos of the current zeitgeist that we can't trust the average man. N hey, as long as the whole, false, concept of ownership continues to exists, then you can't trust the average man. We have the capability to provide every single person with everything they need and the power to themselves create everything they want. In a world like this, why would anyone want to take your stuff?
I don't believe the heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, though this system has made many that way. Not because it's evil, but because to be successful in this game we've created you actually have to be deceitful and wicked. Being nice doesn't get you far in this system, that's just a cruel fact of it. So doesn't it make sense to change the system?
.. People aren't deceitful and wicked, they become deceitful and wicked through experience and environment. This system is our access to the necessities of life, and this system demands deceitful and wicked people, people will do anything to survive, thus deceitful and wicked people are produced.. To deal with the root cause is the only way to solve any problem. Shouldn't we get doing that?
N yea there may be people that will want to fight, and they can, in the ufc. To attack those who don't want to fight is actually the sign of pathetic weakness, and will never be acceptable.
Ah you're not raining on my parade mate. I am a realistic thinker, I have accepted there is a possibility this will never happen. One thing is for certain though, this system won't last, it can't. The collapse you see around the world isn't going to stop. The jobs aren't coming back. People will sooner or later realize that we, as one race, have dug ourselves into a shit pit, and we can change it.
.. Have you looked into TZM at all, or just understand the basics?
It might not happen, but after searching for as long as I can remember for a solution to the problems we face, I found this. And there has honestly never been a more noble cause to be a part of. Even if it never happens, I'd die happy knowing at least I tried.
I can't find any peace in simply accepting that it's a shit world and isn't going to change. Tbh that thought makes me want to not live any more.
.. Check this out :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gagFoqkepRs
Whoooaw TZM holds absolutely no hostility towards religion! Have you read the comments above?
.. And since you ignored my question "Have you looked into TZM at all, or just understand the basics?" I gather you actually know very little about the movement. I strongly recommend you, and everyone else, to educate themselves on the matter. That was the purpose of this thread. It's just a waste of my time to debate with people who don't actually know a thing about the movement other than what they have read on this thread. Which of course is MY thoughts and opinions, and not necessarily that of the movements.
But, you haven't asked me to research anything?
.. N fare enough, I would like to know that source though, since TZMs goal is explained in the OP, you should realize that it is not simply trying to create a post-religion world. Although my personal opinion, well fear, is that as long as religion exists, maybe the human race will remain too dumb to transition to a new way of life.
.. The Wikipedia page on the movement is actually corrupt too and there are people trying to change it, though it's out of our hands. The best way to fully understand the movement is to read the book.
Would you like to see change in the world? But maybe not know where to start? TZM is the best place to start to fully understand why it is so important that we change, and what the possibilities are.
Its a nice idea but wont work. Until we have a global council countries will resist anything they feel threatens them, and theists will resist many of them accuse science of being anti religious just because it dosent bend to their every whim.
Ive spoken to many that accuse evolution of being a religion founded by darwin and satan.
That kind of ignorance will oppose anything unless it matches their faith.
By the way the names too close to zionist i almost didnt read this topic because of that luckily ive an open and curious mind.
I hear ya. And like it says in the Mission Statement, "The Zeitgeist Movement has no allegiance to country or traditional political platforms. It views the world as a single system and the human species as a single family and recognizes that all countries must disarm and learn to share resources and ideas if we expect to survive in the long run. Hence, the solutions arrived at and promoted are in the interest to help everyone on Earth, not a select group." .. The movement fully understand that it is going to take the entire world to work together if we're ever going to get out of this mess.
Hahaha, they are two completely different words with two completely different meanings, I'm glad you didn't dismiss it because of a similar sounding word! (still not that close!)
.. To clarify; The term “zeitgeist” is defined as the “general intellectual, moral and cultural climate of an era.” The term “movement” simply implies “motion” or change. Therefore, The Zeitgeist Movement is an organization that urges change in the dominant intellectual, moral and cultural climate of the time.
Does this whole idea simply not make sense to anyone, and why?
I think it's a great idea, but I also think it has a serious challenge to overcome human nature. We are instinctively tribal, with an ingrained tendency to look for any reason to classify others as "them" in order to have an "us." Unfortunately, we derive meaning and identity from such divisions. Another challenge is that we are rarely motivated collectively to embrace change until forced to by desperate circumstances.
That's not to say we couldn't overcome our nature and view all of humanity as the "us," but I just don't think we're that mature a species yet. Too many benefit from the current system and will actively resist change. I'm afraid the current system will have to fail completely before a new one can be seriously considered. On our current trajectory, I predict we will dig ourselves into a hole deep enough that wholesale change will be the only alternative to extinction, and only then will we be willing to make hard choices.
Still, there is good reason to support such efforts now so that people will have a framework in mind when starting over is the only option.
Well said
I don't believe we're instinctively "tribal," though unfortunately it does linger from the old days. This "tendency to look for any reason to classify others as "them" in order to have an "us"" is not ingrained in us, it is taught to us, the same way I could teach my unborn child to not be that way, and so he/she wouldn't be.. Yes sadly you are right we have come to derive identity from such division, but there is no real meaning behind it.. Again, you're right "we are rarely motivated collectively to embrace change until forced to by desperate circumstances" but you only have to look at whats going on in the world to realize we are already in desperate circumstances. This system is on a one way street to a dead end, and the road is just going to get rougher until we hit that wall. It comes down to education, a lot of the world is quite simply unaware of the true state of the planet and our species or they are aware but are stuck in a false state of helplessness.
Mate, the very fact that this idea is already out there is the proof that we (well some) are mature enough already. For those who aren't, again, it comes down to education.
.. WHAAAAT?!! "Too many benefit from the system" you're very wrong there my friend. With 1% owning 40+% of the worlds wealth, more than half of the worlds population living on less than $2.50 a day, and over a billion in total poverty. The gap between the rich and the poor has never been bigger and is and will continue to grow. There are currently more slaves in the world than ever before. Are there really too many people benefiting from this system? .. People do generally actively resist, but you'll usually find this is with zero to very little knowledge of what the movement advocates. Once again, education.
.. The problem with waiting for this system to collapse completely (which of course will inevitably happen in the coming decades) is that there's a good chance we will pass a "point of no return" where what is possible now, no longer is. That's why it's so important NOT to wait. It's possible that if this generation isn't the one to actively change this shit, no-one will/can. This isn't a hard choice to make. Transition into a new way of life, or remain in this one. Seems like a no-brainer to me.. Indeed if the voice of reason isn't heard and we continue as we are, it will drive this species into a slow, sad, painful extinction. With only hindsight remaining.
These is good reason alright, the future of humanity is that reason. We don't have to let it get to the point where "starting over is the only option." It is in fact simply dumb to do so! We can act NOW.. All it will take is for the majority of the worlds population (or critical mass) to be on the same train of thought at the same time. Easier than you think. And once again, it's a matter of education.. Spread the word, the only reason this isn't been done is because people don't know about it. Logic is undeniable.
A final thought. I want my unborn children and grandchildren to love me. If we leave them a world in ruins, I very much doubt they will. And what would the reason be? "uuuhh well we thought we couldn't change uuuhh" .. Change is a fundamental law of life and must be fully embraced. We can align or we can suffer. It's up to us
I'm reading posts with hope and posts with despair here. Glass half full, glass half empty. I think the glass is just the wrong damned size.
There are both crappy and wonderful things happening within an arm's length of each of us. But looking down just the length of our own arms doesn't provide enough data. As I said in an earlier post, when considering the whole of human history, progress is obvious.
Maturation doesn't happen in one fell swoop. It is incremental. It starts with individuals and can sometimes be as simple as smiling at the person standing next to you in the grocery checkout line. Just sitting in an armchair and saying everything is crap won't change a damn thing.
If we focus on only the ugliness, we have no time to promote the good. If we focus on only the good, we have no ability to address the ugly. Again, the glass is the wrong size. Should we not each challenge ourselves to do what we can to improve this place for ourselves and that person standing next to us at the grocery store?
Well said cyber
Yes i dont bother to vote because i honestly dont feel any current party gives a crap about anything not in their own interest.
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