thoughts on mathematical universe and the hard problem of consciosness

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Jeff Vella Leone's picture
Again, as I said before, it

Again, as I said before, it does not matter how it is derived.

We are talking a bout a concept here.

You are somehow trying to change the subject on why the principles were derived in the first place.
This has nothing to do with consciousness as you are so eager to demonstrate, but the current argument was between a relation of one subject with an other.

No one thought electricity will create computers or the binary storage system when electricity was being invented.

Can't you see the problem in your argument?
It just is irrelevant, what I was talking about was the concept of the holographic universe and it's implications regarding consciousness.

I gave the holographic universe theory as an example of something that can effect conciseness or even create it, to a theist in a discussion about consciousness.

You jumped in and made an unsupported claim that they are not related.
Now you are trying to turn it around in saying that they were not intended to be related originally but we both know that this is just a dodge.

So please, either support your claim or just admit that you jumped to the wrong conclusions.

Although I would be surprised if you could admit that you are wrong about something at all.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Jeff - "This has nothing to

Jeff - "This has nothing to do with consciousness as you are so eager to demonstrate"

exactly

And by the way, the holographic principle is very different than "holographic universe theory". The holographic principle is a mathematical derivation. The "holographic universe theory" is new age bullshit made up by Michael Talbot to "explain" ESP, telepathy, ghosts, and psychic powers.

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
so you admit that you are

so you admit that you are wrong?

or are you going to make a strawman yourself here:
"Jeff - "This has nothing to do with consciousness as you are so eager to demonstrate"

I hope you realize that I was taking about why the first principles were derived in the first place.

Taking that phrase out of context from the sentence before it making a strawman:
Intentionally caricaturing a person's argument with the aim of attacking the caricature rather than the actual argument is what is meant by “putting up a straw man.” Misrepresenting, misquoting, misconstruing and oversimplifying are all means by which one commits this fallacy.

"And by the way, the holographic principle is very different than "holographic universe theory"."
Yea have a read here then:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090203081609.htm

"The "holographic universe theory" is new age bullshit made up by Michael Talbot to "explain" ESP, telepathy, ghosts, and psychic powers."
Michael Talbot might actually use it for that, but it is not a "new age bullshit", it is quite getting popularity among scientists lately since it explains the double slit experiment and other quantum weirdness AND consciousness. :)

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
BTW that is a Generalization

BTW that is a Generalization fallacy, just because "Michael Talbot might actually use it for that" then holographic universe theory is bullshit.

It seems you are finally learning what the fallacies are by doing them yourself.

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
I would also add this link so

I would also add this link so maybe you learn what science is currently researching about the holographic principle:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2522482/Is-universe-holog...

The idea is that we live in a holographic universe and that data about everything in it can be stored on the event horizon of a black hole.
This means that what we call consciousness could actually be the connection we have with the black hole.

It is a possibility that has to be considered and so far there is no reason to consider it impossible or that "the holographic principle has nothing to do with consciousness".

Come to terms with this or support your claim that "the holographic principle has nothing to do with consciousness."

Nyarlathotep's picture
no because the "holographic

no because the "holographic universe" was created by Talbot; long before the holographic principle was derived. As usual you are confusing pseudo-science crap and science popularization with actual science. Go do the hard work, crank the equations yourself and you won't be as easily fooled by new age junk.

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
"no because the "holographic

"no because the "holographic universe" was created by Talbot; long before the holographic principle was derived."
So? Who cares who coined the term
An other strawman.

"As usual you are confusing pseudo-science crap and science popularization with actual science."
More unsupported claims
I demonstrated that the name holographic universe is used by science too, go and read the link I supplied, because unlike you, I support my claims.

"Go do the hard work, crank the equations yourself and you won't be as easily fooled by new age junk"

Go and learn some humility and you won't appear so pathetic and dumb.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Jeff - "since it explains the

Jeff - "since it explains the double slit experiment"
the double slit experiment was explained 90 years ago...

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
I'm tired of your strawmans

I'm tired of your strawmans

I said that it explains consciousness and thus it explains also the double slit experiment in a more nice way then just saying consciousness explains it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW6Mq352f0E

Now stop being so pathetic to resort to these methods to escape from supporting your claims.

Nyarlathotep's picture
you don't need consciousness

you don't need consciousness to explain the double slit experiment, but fruitcakes often claim you do....

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
As far as i am concerned you

As far as i am concerned you can only make unsupported claims and when proven wrong, you just go and change subject about something else.

Dishonest and pathetic behavior.

Do not sprout nonsense if your not ready to support them else you will be ridiculed like you just were, the only fruitcake, here is you.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Jeff, as far as I can tell

Jeff, as far as I can tell you have posted more crackpot stuff here than everyone else combined. Remember when you told us matter can't be destroyed? Or how about the time you told us the energy of empty space is infinite, then turn around and gave a finite amount? Or the multiple times you've used the speed of light as a time, not a velocity. Or when you told us the 1st law doesn't apply in open space? Or remember when you demonstrated repeatedly you don't know how to calculate probability? I know you are beyond reach, but I will call you out on it, so other people won't mistake you for someone who knows anything on the subject, because clearly you don't.

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
Genetic Fallacy

Genetic Fallacy
An argument's origins or the origins of the person making it have no effect whatsoever on the argument's validity. A genetic fallacy is committed when an argument is either devalued or defended solely because of its history. As T. Edward Damer points out, when one is emotionally attached to an idea's origins, it is not always easy to disregard the former when evaluating the latter.

Apart that i supported everything I said on those topics, and you were proven wrong in your assertions, i would not fall for your Strawmans.

I give you back the link to learn about how to make those fallacies :)
https://bookofbadarguments.com/

You are learning fast, keep it coming.

keep on track please,

Nyarlathotep-- "the holographic principle has nothing to do with consciousness"

Support your claim or go hide under some rock with shame.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Jeff - "proven wrong in your

Jeff - "proven wrong in your assertions"

funny I don't remember you presenting a proof...

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
All those assertions are all

All those assertions are all strawmans taken out of context to make a genetic fallacy look better.
I' am not gonna be bothered to explain different topics to such a pathetic, dishonest individual that cannot even admit when he is wrong.

So I will give your own same words back at you:

"I know you are beyond reach, but I will call you out on it, so other people won't mistake you for someone who knows anything on the subject, because clearly you don't."

Pentagon GB's picture
Travis,

Travis,

Really? Consciousness doesn't come from a brain? Demonstrate.

in order to understand this, it would seem you need to know something from quantum mechanics and particle physics as those fields study the ultimate building blocks of what everything else including the brain is made of. The people who are geniuses in these fields (as the quotes show) seem to agree that there is nothing in the arsenal of the building blocks that could account for the consciousness and subjective experience. I don't know enough, but this line of reasoning definitely makes sense to. If one cannot find any physical building blocks that could account for the consciousness, maybe consciousness is fundamental and not produced by matter/brain. it's very consistent with my feeling that we are not mere electrochemical reactions of the brain. From what the article says, the brain merely imprints upon and gives instructions to the consciousness about what and how to experience.

Travis Hedglin's picture
"in order to understand this,

"in order to understand this, it would seem you need to know something from quantum mechanics and particle physics as those fields study the ultimate building blocks of what everything else including the brain is made of."

I actually do know something about those things, seeing that I elected to take physics as a credit in college. Absolutely nothing in it demonstrated that consciousness exists without a brain. It doesn't even deal with consciousness, as a matter of fact, but we did deal with it somewhat in both of the philosophy and psychology classes that I elected to take.

"The people who are geniuses in these fields (as the quotes show) seem to agree that there is nothing in the arsenal of the building blocks that could account for the consciousness and subjective experience."

Two problems with that reasoning:

1. Geniuses in those fields, making comments about things decidedly outside of their fields, do not carry the weight you seem to think that they do.

2. The inability to account for the foundations of a phenomena, does not give license to make assertions about it. We modern physicists can't account for gravity, it doesn't appear to be either a particle of a wave, meaning we really don't know exactly how it occurs. Would that, then, give these "geniuses" the right to determine that it is somehow independent of the physical universe? No, it doesn't, because gravity appears to be dependent on mass, much like consciousness appears to be dependent on a mind; and trying to divorce these things from their physical dependency is simply ridiculous on its face.

"I don't know enough, but this line of reasoning definitely makes sense to. If one cannot find any physical building blocks that could account for the consciousness, maybe consciousness is fundamental and not produced by matter/brain."

Or maybe it is a phenomena produced solely by brains, and does not exist outside of them, and we just don't know how it works. No knowing or being able to account for something does not give one a license to simply make unfounded assertions, that way lies madness. You don't know what gravity is? It MUST be god/pixies/cosmic consciousness/bigfoot/aliens, pick your poison, but it is still and unfounded assertion that will poison your ability to approach it unbiased.

"it's very consistent with my feeling that we are not mere electrochemical reactions of the brain."

I feelings mattered in science, the world would still be flat, and we wouldn't know anything about evolution.

"From what the article says, the brain merely imprints upon and gives instructions to the consciousness about what and how to experience."

And what is their evidence for this? Do they account for the fact that someone with brain damage often has their consciousness limited? Brain-dead people are unconscious by definition, they experience nothing. We have every reason, backed by years of studying the brain and how damage affects it, to assert that consciousness is dependent on the brain. Where are yours?

Pentagon GB's picture
We have every reason, backed

We have every reason, backed by years of studying the brain and how damage affects it, to assert that consciousness is dependent on the brain. Where are yours?

dependent does not ONLY mean 'produced'. it can also mean 'interacting'
don't you see that it's completely consistent with what the article says? - it can be explained in terms that the link from the brain to the consciousness is cut off and not in terms that consciousness ceased to exist. How do you explain out of body experiences? fraud? there is more to the story than you know

Travis Hedglin's picture
"dependent does not ONLY mean

"dependent does not ONLY mean 'produced'. it can also mean 'interacting'"

Actually, we interact with tons of things we are not dependent on, but the things we depend on for our existence are necessary to exist. The consciousness appears to depend on the brain for existence, doesn't it?

"don't you see that it's completely consistent with what the article says? - it can be explained in terms that the link from the brain to the consciousness is cut off and not in terms that consciousness ceased to exist."

So the appearance of limited consciousness isn't actually limited consciousness? Wow. I is becoming quite clear to me that you don't REALLY care if what you want to believe is actually true, just if you can make enough logical contortions and bald assertions to appear to support it. Unfortunately, you have just disregarded unwanted data with an ad hoc rationalization, which bodes poorly for your argument. Every single piece of empirical data shows that consciousness is dependent on the health and state of the brain, every single test we can come up with confirms this, and yet you want to assert that it just "looks" that way? What possible basis could you have for that?

"How do you explain out of body experiences? fraud? there is more to the story than you know"

Oh. Wow. Really? Just when I thought your argument COULDN'T get any worse! Many of the people who who have claimed to have OOBEs have suffered from traumatic brain injuries, sensory deprivation, near-death experiences, dehydration, and other occurrences that would have altered what goes on in their brains. Others literally TRAIN their brains to produce such things. The vast majority of OOBEs happen in a hospital, and I can only say:

1. I know a number of anesthesiologists. They are not impressed by these stories. It is common for patients to be aware during general anesthesia. They remember many details of the people, objects, and procedures in the room. We absolutely expect some number of supposedly unconscious patients to report things that happened that a layperson would assume were unknowable. In fact, The Lancet published research in 2001 that showed nearly 20% of patients retained memories of things that happened when they were clinically dead.

2. What's rarely or never written up in books is the fact that most such "recollections" get their details wrong, and were probably just imagined by the patient. When authors compile stories to promote the idea of NDEs, they tend to universally exclude these; in fact the majority were never recorded anywhere to begin with. If out-of-body experiences are truly part of passing over into the afterlife, then they usually represent an afterlife of some alternate universe where everything's wrong.

3. Some of the stories can't be explained by either of the above. They include specific details that the patient could not have known. Sadly, all of these are anecdotal. They're very interesting and I wish we had more of them, and that controls had been in place at the time. Since they weren't, the scientific method requires us to shrug and say "Neat, but not evidence, let's do it better next time."

As an example of the value of anecdotes in suggesting directions for research, Dr. Penny Sartori placed playing cards in obvious places on top of operating room cabinets at a hospital in Wales in 2001, while she was working as a nurse, as part of a supervised experiment. Although she's a believer in the afterlife, and documented fifteen cases of reported out-of-body experiences by patients during her research, not one person ever reported seeing the playing cards or even knowing they were there.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Pentagon GB - "How do you

Pentagon GB - "How do you explain out of body experiences?"

Well since out of body experiences can be induced mechanically on the brain, that isn't helping your case :)

mysticrose's picture
I'm not good in math so it's

I'm not good in math so it's hard for me to figure out the sacred geometry.

Pentagon GB's picture
"Thermonuclear reactions in

"Thermonuclear reactions in sun produce photons – carrier particles of electromagnetic energy. The photons propagate towards earth and eventually hit optic nerve in our eyes. The optic nerve, in response, generates electrical signals that travel further along the neural pathways of the brain. Neural cells in the brain get excited and start firing more electrical impulses. This entire cascade of electrical activity is purely physical phenomena and despite being undoubtedly difficult to trace and decode in details in a lab, represents absolutely no fundamental conceptual problem. But suddenly, if as by magic, in the midst of this purely physical phenomena, arises subjective experience of let’s redness – arises perception, awareness, and experience of color. Who/what is experiencing this? The brain and neural cells? Chemical and electrical activity? It’s utterly incomprehensible. It’s plain obvious that neither the neural cells of a brain nor chemical nor electrical activity experiences this. Period.". I think this is an absolutely valid description. "it is more than impossible – it is inconceivable – how subjective experience can possibly arise in a ‘sea’ of elementary particles doing their mindless thing"

CyberLN's picture
Incomprehensible?

Incomprehensible? Inconceivable?

I can both comprehend and conceive it.

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
"But suddenly, if as by magic

"But suddenly, if as by magic, in the midst of this purely physical phenomena, arises subjective experience of let’s redness – arises perception, awareness, and experience of color. Who/what is experiencing this?"

Are you claiming that the brain cannot deliver "perception, awareness, and experience of color."???

"It’s plain obvious that neither the neural cells of a brain nor chemical nor electrical activity experiences this. Period."

By saying "Period", it doesn't make your claim more valid , it just shows close mindedness on a topic which mind me valid or not.

It is not obvious that the brain does not "arises perception, awareness, and experience of color."
We can test that in a lab that by cutting the right pieces of a brain those things cease to arise.
So no, the brain is definitely involved in those aspects.

"it is inconceivable – how subjective experience can possibly arise in a ‘sea’ of elementary particles doing their mindless thing"
You are a subjective person, your own personal brain makes it so, so why do you find it strange that you have a subjective interpretation from the experience "of elementary particles doing their mindless thing"???

DanDare's picture
The whole thing is an

The whole thing is an argument from incredulity. It is a failure and has no persuasive power.

Pentagon GB's picture
gosh, you don't understand

gosh, you don't understand what the article is saying about the incomprehensibility of how the physical particles can produce consciousness/subjective experience. I am not an expert by any means, but it's plainly obvious you don't understand this problem. Do more research on the hard problem of consciousness. There are many proposals, but they all have been demonstrated completely unsatisfactory. You are probably not even aware of this problem - it's not commonly discussed - because scientists and philosophers simply give up on trying to resolve it. The problem is utterly incomprehensible when framed in the physical terms. What you are doing is basically saying that you and all people are just mere electrochemical reactions in the brain - that there is nothing more to this. I reject this perspective completely and I would argue that a majority of people would agree with me.

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
Instead of showing your

Instead of showing your ignorance in the subject, why not quote where does the article claim what you think it is saying.
So maybe we get what it is saying from the source rather then your biased interpretation, which btw shows lack of understanding basic English.

"you don't understand what the article is saying about the incomprehensibility of how the physical particles can produce consciousness/subjective experience."
Which part of the article proved "the incomprehensibility of how the physical particles can produce consciousness/subjective experience."??

"What you are doing is basically saying that you and all people are just mere electrochemical reactions in the brain - that there is nothing more to this."
I never said that, but it is your bias that made you think I said that.

I said that the brain is involved and this is a testable fact.
Without the brain there is no such effects that you claimed before.

We cannot claim that "that there is nothing more to this" because that wouldn't be science.

What we do is that we arrive at our conclusions with what we can demonstrate and test.

Currently we know that the physical brain is involved with those effects, until we can demonstrate that there are other factors involved we simply don't claim things.

That is the difference between modesty and arrogance.

Pentagon GB's picture
"I said that the brain is

"I said that the brain is involved and this is a testable fact."

Of course, that's what the article is saying too: "The brain is giving instructions to consciousness about what to experience". How is it 'not involved'? What the article is saying is that many great scientists and philosophers approached the problem and all failed. Literally all. No one is able even to conceive how it's possible. You simply don't realise the severity of the problem and that's why I asked you to do more research into the hard problem of consciousness (if you care). Maybe watch the TED show at http://blog.ted.com/2014/03/19/the-hard-problem-of-consciousness-david-c... to understand.

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
from your own link:

from your own link:

"Chalmers closes by repeating that these are crazy ideas, designed to solve a hard problem, “It’s a radical idea, and I don’t know if it’s correct. This is the hardest problem in science and philosophy, so we aren't going to figure it out overnight, but I do think we’re going to figure it out eventually.”"

Which is exactly what I said to you in my original post, eventually we will figure it out.

"No one is able even to conceive how it's possible."
This is wrong, from y research I have found answers to consciousness, it just requires honest critical thinking and patience.
It is just a matter of time to prove such concepts, that is all, but people have solutions to them, the problem is finding a way to test them.

As I said before, scientist do not make unsupported claims, they base their finding on tested and confirmed ideas.
So just because one has come out yet with a solution, it does not mean there is no solution or "No one is able even to conceive how it's possible."
Again this is just arrogance, and making unsupported claims.

Hold your horses and do more research because if I did find hypotheses about this, so should you.

DanDare's picture
The brain is not "giving

The brain is not "giving instructions to consciousness". Brains are being conscious. You can study the material and energy of a functioning brain and it behaves as if there is nothing else, no unexpected behaviors. When you alter a brain the conscious experience it is having is altered, and sometimes halted. The see of atoms and energy states is having an experience. It does not require any dualist interpretation and no dualist interpretation I have seen survives being tested against the measurable evidence.

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