Just came here from your facebook page and got a Question: How do you justify saying you KNOW that there is no God. In my Opinion it is not possible to proove a God / higher being, neither to proove he's not existing. You cannot tell if there is some old man with a beard, who sits in heaven and does not care for us humans.
I personally dont believe there is a god, but there is no way to know it, so I cannot say, "there is no God", which is basically the position of atheists.
So is there any real reason to prefer atheism to agnosticism ?
Would love to get some good answers, got no "real" atheists as Friends, so no possibility for me to discuss this in real life.
My English should be understandable, but sorry for grammatical errors and horrible spelling style :)
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In my opinion, absolute certainty is something lacking from most, if not all, facets of life. You can make a valid argument that agnosticism is the only truly logical defensible position, but I think that takes the question to unnecessary logical extremes. Much like the "theories" of gravity and evolution, atheism is simply the best explanation we have for the world we see around us. It becomes necessary to present this as certainty in order to validate our views in the eyes of the religious.
Atheism is nothing like a scientific theory and it doesn't explain anything. It's not an explenation. It's conclusion or position on a "god clame'' Positive clame has the burden of proof, so most reasonable (valid) /default position is not believing,until some evidence is presented.
The best position, by far, is that of agnostic atheism, that which I chose to believe in.
It says, in layman terms, "It is not certain whether God exists or not, but that the probability of God not existing seems to me to be more"
Which is true too, if you think about it.
Richard Dawkins, in his book the God Delusion, specifies 7 'levels' of beliefs.
The seventh, or the most vigor level, is that of a staunch atheist.
This, Dawkins himself, condemns.
So first of all, you're right, you cannot 100% prove that God doesn't exist, in that you cannot 100% prove that ANYTHING doesn't exist. In an infinite universe (or multiple universes), the majority of which we can't see, we cannot possibly know what is out there. That's not just an opinion, that's established fact. For instance, I could tell you that there is a rare breed of purple cabbage several galaxies away that has 5 legs, likes to wear top hats and only eats liquorice; it almost certainly doesn't exist, but we have nothing to say that it doesn't. However, the reason atheism works is that it is simply a burden of proof argument: deists claim that this higher being created this world and all that's in it, stands in judgement of us etc, but there's no actual proof of any of this being true, and no one should simply accept something without evidence. You wouldn't expect me to get away with making a claim about this cabbage without actually showing you some direct evidence for it, would you? If I turned round and said "ah, but you can't prove that it isn't real", you'd hardly deem that satisfactory enough as grounds for me or anyone else to accept its existence (and/or worship it).
The creation myths put forward by holy texts have been shown to be utter nonsense as they're in direct contradiction of established scientific fact which has a lot of experimental and mathematical reasoning behind it. We can say then, that, on the balance of such evidence, such a creator is very very unlikely. In a sense, it does sort of sound like agnosticism, in that we're not saying there is 100% absolutely no God. In the same way we can't 100% guarantee that no rare five-legged, top-hat-wearing liquorice-eating cabbage isn't actually out there.
But the crucial part is this: It is the duty of those who make the claim (i.e. the religious in the case of God, myself in the case of the cabbage) to substantiate it, not of anyone else to disprove it, and any "proof" offered by these deists has often fallen short of the mark and shown to be not conclusive enough to suggest that there is any sort of supernatural being whatsoever, let alone an almighty creator deity, and evidence seems to point to the contrary.
I don't want to repeat what has already been said so eloquently by the previous contributors, so I'll keep this short:
We can't say that we know God doesn't exist; I say we leave that absolute certainty to the devout. Life is so much more humbling and thrilling when you live in an uncertain world, don't you think?
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Agnosticism & atheism are not mutualy exclusive & technicaly we are all agnostics. One is about belief the other about knowledge. So you can be agnostic-atheist or gnostic-atheist or gnostic-theist,agnostic-theist. I find the term useless and annoying when theists use it in debates as a winning point-after atheist say ''I don't know'' Atheists usualy have no problem saying ''I don't know'' But as agnostic I am stil without belief in god. ( A-theist)
With positive clame ''there is no god'' You shift the burden of proof back to your side. So most reasonable position is simply ''don't believe'' Before that I would first define ''God ''more preciselly. I can't say anything about Deism/creator of the universe/something out there, but when You talk about old man in the sky - I Know it's a fairy-tale.
"An injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere..." by Martin Luther King Jr. GOOD LUCK!!
PLEASE I HUMBLY SUGGEST FOR ALL THOSE CAUGHT IN RELIGIOUS CONFUSIOUS.....TO GO TO COMMENTS AT Atheist Facts, Fotos & Funnies on facebook. We Know we must remain Atheist (because hearts of God and heaven need a serious revolution to be humane), but many others are caughts in what may very well cause the "holy wars" to come true. Help to spread the word there if you feel like it. Always yours, Babble On
first of all i know that this word god is over rated and when i died this last time all i saw and felt was a type of substance that in became it was one with me and i was one with it neither male nor female kind of like being in air with out a body with no thoughts that i had flesh and n energy of some sort as an invisible gravity type force illuminating thought which was all i felt i was thought light being one within it and it one with me but no man no woman just an is-ness without need of breath but living.not knowing i had a life before i got there until i game back into my flesh and no no bodies of human form a all
Holy wars are everywhere. There is nothing that says the atheist cannot participate. If you believe in something or don't believe in something, you have to stand up for what you believe in, even if it means going to war. Some words of wisdom.
Please see Alliance International for true atheist action....which calls also for religious tolerance and understanding. We who are in the know, the who's who of the world can tell you honestly and sincerely that because the hearts of God and Heaven need a serious revolution to allow us to be humane and become as one people not killing each other.....Atheism is THEY ONLY TRUE X generation and below only viable option people of USA. Atheism. Older generations....too old and demented and positioned already to join us. I have to go now. Much love to all!!
Quickly listen and then stop listening. Those who know what that means please do. To all; Jesus himself was created by an unjust, judgmental God. We all know we are equals. If I , my spirit, were born into your family I might grow up to be a muslim woman for example. If you were born in my life you might grow to be a Christian woman (i.e. Jesus lover) for example. JESUS WAS AN ATHEIST. He went to the POWERS THAT BE / ACTING GODS of his time and said NO STOP......."you are NOT telling all the people about how to love themselves and others but keeping these secrets to yourselves!!!" and if you don't tell them I will and I will claim to be God!!! He Called them pharasees , the lords, and that as they traveled the land and seas for converts that they then make converts twice as fit for hell as they were (is) themselves. JESUS HATED ORGANIZED so called "religion". Original "Christ"ians (Christ means Bless you or example shalom or Good Luck and Good Health) were running and dying by the millions for believing that GOD HAVE BECOME LIKE A DEVIL-GOD, even though there was also a SATAN GOD. That is why we can't be agnostics because GOD may still get you so we choose ATHEISM. WHY? GOD was judgment. But if it were the real GOD ......God does not judge, judging others unless you've walked in their shoes (their life) is the very definition of EVIL. Judgment equals arrogance, equals division, equals war, war equals Men killing men over what??? Our different beliefs that were man-learned? So Jesus one man-prophet for people died trying to save the very people that then called for his death (as they needed food and water to live and did what the lords wanted!) . Secretly if you read the "RED-LETTER" Bible and hear only the words of Jesus, you should understand why USA has Christian church on every corner. In essence all Christians were fighting the GOD-DEVIL for revolution and equality....we still are but most don't know it....For the only real way to stay away from "merry-go-round, roller coaster" of God game is to become an atheist....I feel comfortable saying I believe in any prophet that calls for love, tolerance and respect of every man for every man and that loving Jesus and Muhammed I can also be an ahteist........Because until we revolutionize current God to non-judgement must not call out to any God above. Instead move hearts from within to love and respect one anothers lives ...........as precious as you were all babies once too!!!!! that's what Jesus really would want.....love to ALL .........and seriously if I could play ball...........I would play ball............but I really can't.................so I can't..............so I won't...........not being will-full. Seriously disabled woman!!! ME! Judy (last sentence for love of confuscious!!)
now hear this number one god in human form was made up by MEN WHO WERE MEDICAL DOCTORS FROM WEALTHY FAMILIES UNDER LOYAL TO THE KING AND QUEEN FROM WHERE EVER THE IDEA WAS TO RULE ABOVE WOMEN AND THIS ENTIRE PLANET. NO MALE GOD CREATED THIS EARTH OR UNIVERSE NOR CREATED WOMEN FROM A MAN. THE ANSWER IS IN NATURE AND THE ELEMENTS IONS NUETRONS AND PROTONS AND MAGNETISM ALSO AIR EARTH WATER AND FIRE ND OBSERVING OR KNOWING WHAT SCIENCE HAS FOUND THE ELEMENTS OF WHAT MAKES WHAT. .WE HAVE THESE SAME ELEMENTS IN OUR BODIES,BLOOD MUSCLE AND BONES AND ORGANS. THE KEY IN NATURE IS THE MANDRAKE TREE WHICH ONE IS IN SHAPE OF A FEMALE ND THE OTHER MALE ON THE TREES TRUNK OF THE TREE IN WHICH WAS BANNED IN THIS COUNTRY AND ALL OVER AFTER THE IDEA OF RELIGION WAS CREATED BY MAN TO MAKE ONE WORLD RELIGION . THIS TREE IS NOT MADE BY MAN WHERE THE IDEA OF THE TREE OF LIFE WAS BASED ON IN PART. SHAMANS WITCHES AND WIZARDS ,VODOU KNOW OF THESE TREES THEY HAVE GREAT HEALING ND POISONOUS PROPERTIES IN THEM. THE JEWS THE MOSLEMS THE CHRISTIANS COPIED AND WROTE A STORY TO CONTROL HUMAN KIND INCLUDING EUROPES AND ROMES EARLY KING AND QUEENS. THESE POWERS AND HIGH PRIEST KNOW THAT THIS IS A FALSE HOOD FANTASY STORY AND HOW THE MIND AND EMOTIONS WORK. S DOES THE ARABS AND THE ORIENTAL. ALL HAD TO CREATE LIKE COMPETITIVE POWER STORIES WHEN EACH CAME TO POWER TO RULE, AND TO KEEP ONE FROM FINDING OUT THE POWER WITH-IN TO LOOK UP AND OUT KNOWING THE TRUTH OF LIFE WOULD NEVER BE FOUND THIS WAY IN ONE LIFE TIME BY FEARFUL JEALOUS HEADED PERSONS. EVEN HEARTLESS ONES. BUT RELIGIONS CONTROL IS DYING OUT AND THE FEW WHO BELIEVE IN THIS RELIGEONS ARE SCARED TOO LOOSE THERE POSITIONS OR THERE LEADERSHIPS ITS EASY MONEY AND THE BIGGEST SCAM KNOWN IN THIS UNIVERSE. TO KEEPS US ALL GOING IN CIRCLES AND NEVER FINDING A WAY OUT OR PEACE. TO CONTINUE TO HAVE POWER ON THIS EARTH AND KEEP CHAOS GOING
Is brainpain hiding something?
What is brainpain?
It's actually simple, despite the misinformation and complexity that seems to keep being tossed around by the media -- atheism is simply the classification of the "absence of belief in deities (and supernatural agents)." This can be a position, but it doesn't have to be; as per the fundamental natural "freedom" of atheism, one has the option to hold it as a position.
If you contend that it is not possible to prove or disprove the existence of any number of deities, then you fit into the "agnostic" crowd.
If you insist that one or more deities do exist, then you are a theist.
If you insist that deities don't exist, then you are an anti-theist.
The problem with the media these days is that extremists keep getting airtime to vilify atheists as if we were all anti-theists. Indeed, some atheists are anti-theists the various degrees, but there are also many who are not, yet this distinction isn't generally promoted (it certainly doesn't help with TV/AM/FM/XM ratings and so the motivation to provide accurate reporting is pretty much non-existent for the simple reason that low ratings aren't profitable). Fortunately there seems to be an increase in recent years with grass roots efforts such as can be heard on non-profit radio stations and publications, many of which are hosted at educational institutions like universities, and I do hope this trend continues to expand quickly over the next few decades.
Regarding having atheist friends, I suggest you don't try to pick your friends based on whether they conform to a particular religious philosophy -- the more meaningful relationships are free of such arbitrary conditions; develop friendships with people for genuine reasons, such as mutual respect, tangible similarities (e.g., hobbies, sports, local community involvement, etc.), common goals or challenges, or just because you "get along" well together, etc.
Arbitrary requirements, particularly in friendship, can be destructive. Friedrich Nietzsche, a great philosopher who shared his profound insights with the world, once wrote about how adhering to virtue(s) is like a form of slavery -- I think he made an interesting point because chasing a virtue is a deviation from one's nature. In this light, the more extreme slave-masters would be most religions since they tend to promote groups of many virtues, some of which can conflict (and so interpretation may also be required).
The most important thing to remember about atheism is that it is fundamentally about "freedom." Defending your freedom to express yourself (which must include the license to offend -- a point that Christopher Hitchens successfully debated for since a lack of such a license contradicts what freedom truly is), to think any way you please, and to not be shy to openly question facts and theories, are among the most important things anyone can do. If we, as a society, fail to protect our freedoms to think, express, and question, then we are denying the true nature of living freely by granting others the power to control us.
I certainly don't feel any sense of shame when I express myself in response to someone else attacking atheism, especially when they're perpetuating misinformation about it and I can correct it, and I don't see why anyone should feel guilty about doing the same.
Don't allow anyone to mis-defined atheism as a religion, or as a world view, for there's no need for it to become complicated.
IMHO, atheism is not about a g-o-d or g-o-dthings, its a negative truth meant to improve the quality of human's life and existence
when I was childhood my grandma use to say bed time stories about angels and fairies and my parents worship those imaginary fairies and angels in the form of different kind of Idols. But i never seen them not even once. God was always been a fairy tale for me.
Interesting take. It is nice to have a grandma who told stories about anything. I hope you enjoyed all her stories about the angels and everything else.
Thanks, everyone. I was wondering this too.
I believe there is a God. Although not in the traditional way. I'm no expert on cosmology, but if you look at the universe and its perfectness, it had to be created by some kind of higher intelligence. I'm guess you could call that God.
There are various religions and castes spread all over the word, And if you make a detailed study about their dieties , Then you will find an common thing i.e Every religion has an god on the good side and evil on the bad and in my opinion this good and evil lies in our innerself itself, So its quite easy to say that god and evil lies in ourself.
I have believed in God since I was a kid, but it makes you wonder sometimes WHERE God is at times when you need him most. I can understand that makes people believe that there is no God since we always have problems and our prayers are never answered, but I feel that belief in God is a true belief or a true disbelief. In other words, no matter what, people either believe or do not believe in God.
I have personally gone through tough times, and it seemed like my prayers were going in vein, And when you find out that their is nothing more worst than this you find an new hurdle!!
But once I had an space to breath out of the problems I realized that every hurdle that that I had to face during the tough times where inturn an solution to my previous problem, So it was like God gave me stronger to make the situation by providing me with solution every time.
One proof that there is no such thing as a god that cares that you can take is the fact that with millions of people suffering, why is he not doing anything? Or is it because that is what he wants? If it is then he is a god that wants us to suffer. But no one would want to have a god that wants people to suffer. So we only believe in gods that wants people to suffer. And then we go back to the fact that even so, there are millions of people in the world who are suffering who do not seem to deserve any of it at all.
Its not that God wants his creatures to suffer from different problems, But the fact is that where their lies happiness their should lie sorrow too. In order to get the balance of life and living.
I think the best way to go about it is to acknowledge that there is a strong possibility that there is nothing, while there is also a chance that there is soemthing out there. You dont really need to deny the existence of anything you cant prove. All you need to do is live life as if there is nothing out there. Be good because you want to be good, because you know its the right thing to do. Not because a god will punish you. Get through bad times because you have the strenghtto do so, because you want to be better for yourself and those you love. Not because a god will carry you through your problems.
It's simple, but hard to do for most people.
Yeah ,I somewhat agree with you .
Your good works fetch you happiness and Your bad works will bring you sorrow,
Its not that God gives you sorrows but when your Good deeds decrease It will
decrease the happiness in your life correspondingly.
For instance darkness occurs not because fade of dark light but It occurs when the quantity of Light decreases.
I think that's a good belief to have regardless of whether or not you believe in a god. Just live the best life you can, and your best will get better :)
The best answers have definitely already been given :) Still, I'm going to say a little bit.
I'm agnostic, not atheist as many people are here, though I'm probably leaning more to the side of atheism than anything else. As a scientist, I know that it's pretty much impossible to prove that *anything* in this world that we humans have thought of doesn't exist somewhere, with 100% certainty. There's just simply too many variables to go through to prove the absolute non-existence of anything.
However, given what we know about the world so far, I believe that's it's at least a million times more likely that there is not god as documented by the major world religions, than the slim chance that there is. That's just common sense, in my opinion :)
As far as true atheism goes, I think that just like with any other religious view, it boils down to faith and belief. Some people adamantly believe that there is a god, and no amount of proof to the contrary will dissuade them. Likewise, there are people who are steadfast in their belief that there is *no* god, and see no reason to open their mind to possibilities that would include a deity.
I beleive atheism can be a little close minded too. If you think about it, the claim of a god being real and to state that someone would be 100% sure of this, is just about as ridiculous as stating that you know for sure there is no god. It's obviously easier to claim that something doesn't exist if no one has seen it or presents valid proof of it, but saying that god exists is even harder to prove.
THis leaves the agnostic in the most intelligent possition in my opinion. You don't believe in anything you cannot prove but you are open to the possibility of anything being real. You just need more proof to be convinced of it.
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