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@ Sushisnake
Only if you quote the verse about the firstborn babe that god "struck" and he died within 7 days....its actually on this forum.
So its obvious JF hasn't bothered to read anything. Just weighed in with his 'irrefutable truths' and 'self evident' proofs of god.
Just another drive by christian with nothing new. People like JF make me long for a debate with Breezy when he comes out of that self imposed christian closet.
@Old Man,
oh... this is way more fun than dusting off posts from years past. No one is twisting your arm.
Do you quote an abundance of passages simply because you can't find one that fits the accusation? This is a thread for evidence, right?
Childbirth - not torturing babies
Kill boys, spare girls - not torturing babies
Slave beating - not torturing babies
Criminal beating - not a baby
Adulterer stoning - not a baby
Child discipline - sanctioned only for turning away foolishness, not for the fun of it, not babies
Youth vs bear - not babies
Wicked servant - not a baby
Tormented five months - babies can't desire death, neither can they be tormented by guilt having never done anything wrong, and torment isn't torture
Wine torment - babies can't be tormented by guilt, and torment isn't torture
firstborn babe struck - not torture
God stands acquitted for lack of evidence: He never condoned the torturing of babies for the fun of it.
He condoned and committed the killing of many babies, but there is no evidence of torture. Furthermore, it is reasonable to assess from the text that all babies go to heaven, which is worth the momentary pain of death.
How about decreeing the snipping off of foreskin of baby boys, one of the densest nerve areas in the entire body? Remember this has been occurring many years before modern medicine and anesthesia/pain blockers!
Not your particular "god" interpretation that you been conditioned into believing?
If so: why does your "god" allow people following a "false god interpretation" carry out this barbaric practice on millions of baby boys? Oh those boys were born to the wrong confused parents? They deserve said torture?
If your god was so interested in saving pain and misery in babies and mothers why not a few simple instructions from this all knowing "god" about the use of clean hands during the birth process? Or save even more countless babies and mothers by teaching people how to perform a safe C-Section with sharp clean knives, instructions on where to cut, sterile environment and how to suture and properly close the cut? All possible with bronze age technology? A simple 1 page addition in the holy babble would of worked.
How about all the babies that died in the black plague? All the babies that starved to death when their mothers/parents succumbed to the black plague? Your "god" could not even bother to add 1-2 lines in the holy babble about avoiding fleas and other pest in times of plague?
Oh I forget myself, this is the same god that wiped out nearly everyone, cause he was mad one day and decided to create a great flood that wiped out all people and land based animals, except those saved by Noah and his ark. Sea animals that can survive a saltwater/freshwater mix and birds that can land on water exempted!
The utter insanity of the fictional holy babble and the god it depicts is bad enough, that billions of people that still believe this insanity in one form another surely points to general gullibility and power of religious indoctrination is clear.
@LFTW: How about decreeing the snipping off of foreskin of baby boys, one of the densest nerve areas in the entire body? Remember this has been occurring many years before modern medicine and anesthesia/pain blockers!...
Suppose your accusations are valid. Is that just morally wrong in your opinion or is it really morally wrong?
@JF Re: "He condoned and committed the killing of many babies, but there is no evidence of torture. Furthermore, it is reasonable to assess from the text that all babies go to heaven, which is worth the momentary pain of death."
Aaaaaaaaand you are okay with that? Along with all those other points you made? A couple in particular that really stand out are...
1. "Slave beating - not torturing babies" Yep, you have got to be pretty damn proud of yourself for THAT one. "HAH! Take that, you ignorant atheists! God says it is okay to beat the shit out of your slaves, but NOT babies....(*mumbling* in that particular passage). See how awesome God is to babies? Atheists are so stupid."
2. "Tormented five months - babies can't desire death, neither can they be tormented by guilt having never done anything wrong, and torment isn't torture." Seriously?.... No, I mean, really.... SERIOUSLY???
Quick vocabulary lesson for you Mr. Cerebral Wonder...
Torture: noun
1. the action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or to force them to do or say something, or for the pleasure of the person inflicting the pain.
synonyms: infliction of pain, abuse, ill-treatment, maltreatment, persecution; sadism
"acts of torture"
Torment: noun
noun: torment; plural noun: torments/ˈtôrment/
1. severe physical or mental suffering.
"their deaths have left both families in torment"
synonyms: agony, suffering, torture, pain, anguish, misery, distress, affliction, trauma, wretchedness;
So, if my understanding is correct, those were your "home run" arguments for the passages Old Man posted? Dang, dude, you really are a special kind of warped.
@tin-man: "HAH! Take that, you ignorant atheists! God says it is okay to beat the shit out of your slaves"
Is there something wrong with that or is it just your opinion?
"2. "Tormented five months - babies can't desire death, neither can they be tormented by guilt having never done anything wrong, and torment isn't torture." Seriously?.... No, I mean, really.... SERIOUSLY???"
Torture involves a second person actively inflicting severe pain. Torment is suffering. You can be tormented over a decision you've made. Torment remains not torture.
My purpose here is not to get sidetracked going into why these acts and commands were right in response to our heinous sins. My purpose in this particular case to demonstrate that someone slandered God and in general to demonstrate that some things are wrong whether we believe it or not. Do you really believe that everything is a matter of opinion?
@JF Re: "My purpose here is not to get sidetracked going into why these acts and commands were right..." Along with.... "Do you really believe that everything is a matter of opinion?"
Your PURPOSE may very well be to not get sideTRACKED, but my OPINION is that you certainly do not mind doing some side-STEPPING.
@Jesus Follower: all babies go to heaven, which is worth the momentary pain of death.
Serial killer logic. Do you feel no empathy for a baby dying in pain?
Kill boys, spare girls - not torturing babies<\cite>
So under your god-given "objective" morality, killing children is ok, but killing babies isn't. Is there a minimum age for killing children? What does the bible tell you about this? What about race? Gender? Are they criteria, too?
torment isn't torture
Yes it is. They are close synonyms.
@JF
Well I was just going on the whole torture thing, but if you want a specific instance in the bible never mind the other examples these perfidious atheists will bring to bear
2 Samuel 12:15
"However, because by this deed you have given occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born to you shall surely die." 15 So Nathan went to his house. Then the LORD struck the child that Uriah's widow bore to David, so that he was very sick. 16 David therefore inquired of God for the child; and David fasted and went and lay all night on the ground.…
And the child died anyway AFTER 7 DAYS, ...because god was in a snit...torture for 7 days for a sick baby why not make it a quick death?. Why not smite David a bit and leave the kid alone?
Your god really likes the misery stuff.
Next?
@Old man shouts:
Anyone who's cared for a sick baby knows all about torment.The poor little mites don't understand why they're hurting, and they must think it will go on forever. And they wonder why Mummy and Daddy who know everything and can do anything can't stop the misery.
In his autobiography, Roald Dahl said that when he was a kid, most adults believed that children didn't really feel pain. The doctor came to his house and took out his tonsils in the kitchen with no anesthetic! Maybe Christians still have that idea and so aren't concerned about their Sky-Daddy's cruelty to little kids.
@Algebe: Anyone who's cared for a sick baby knows all about torment.
Man, I hear you there. I have kids, and my son went on a nursing strike once. He was approaching 1 year old and gave up nursing.
He had been exclusively breast-fed to that point which was probably a mistake. I came home from work that evening and my wife was hysterical. He was very lethargic, sitting on the couch, propped up by pillows without enough energy to lift his little arms. We had just moved, so the shock of being in a new house at that young age is what we think initiated it. We took him to the ER that night, and they got an IV in him to get him up a bit again. But the next day he continued his strike. We had a lot of trouble finding a pediatric doctor that would take us for follow up. Here my child is slouching down, eyes half open, us trying to get help via phone or trying to spoon ice chips into his mouth. This went on for a week. We were very scared. Very scared. Helpless. Weeping. Then he started nursing again. His strength came back. And he started walking. As it turns out, nursing strikes are often followed by big developmental steps. Now, we hardly remember the pain and suffering that happened back then. I think it will be like that in heaven thinking back to this life. It was very real in the moment, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I agree that we need to minimize suffering as much as possible.
I fail to see how being an atheist would have helped me cope in that very difficult time. It would remove the one person [God] I could legitimately scream at who could actually help. It would also remove any hope, especially had he [my son] died.
There is no single sufficient response to the problem of evil in this world because every situation is different and they are all so painful. I think J Warner Wallace presents several that are helpful. J Warner Wallace has solid Christian responses. http://coldcasechristianity.com/?s=problem+of+evil
This isn't just a problem for Christianity though. Every worldview has to deal with suffering. How does the atheist?
(edited for clarity new additions in brackets.)
@ JF
"Every worldview has to deal with suffering. How does the atheist?"
You avoid answers, but I don't.
Atheists don't accept that a skyfairy wants their child as a sun/moon/star beam/twinkle/marshmallow fritter. We dont accept a nasty vindictive skyfairy thet will torture a child with leukemia, bone cancer, agonising diseases and deformities. Most atheists will not accept a god to whom torture is pretty much a natural occurrence for all humans.
Whether 'faithful', 'devout', batshit crazy or not, shit happens...there is no reason.
Dollar collections in church don't stop Polio and diphtheria, vaccines do. Men and women stop disease; gods don't, pastors do not, prayers do not, popes do not.
Most atheists I know cope because we are human, we know death and suffering is a natural part of life and we do all we can to alleviate it. We call it acceptance. It's not so hard once you live in the real world.
@Old Man Re: "Most atheists I know cope because we are human, we know death and suffering is a natural part of life and we do all we can to alleviate it. We call it acceptance. It's not so hard once you live in the real world."
*standing in my chair clapping and cheering*
@Old man shouts: "You avoid answers, but I don't."
No one knows everything, and you bring up some good points. I would like to answer all of them fairly, but I also want to keep on the subject with the limited time we are all given. I'd also be surprised if I were the first one to answer your accusations against God's OT laws, so I focus rather on the question at hand rather than each rabbit trail, the answers to which you'd likely dismiss anyway. Do you see what I'm saying?
In a few words, I love you enough to keep focused. Life is short and then we all will appear before a Holy God. If you want answers, I'll do my best. Ask away.
"Most atheists I know cope because we are human, we know death and suffering is a natural part of life and we do all we can to alleviate it. We call it acceptance. It's not so hard once you live in the real world."
You haven't done all you can to alleviate it. Each child born adds one more to the death toll eventually, and he gets to endure suffering along the way.
(edited for clarity)
@ JF
I've made the point the point earlier, no, you will not be the first to be an apologist and front meaningless or fallacious arguments for an indefensible and needlessly cruel and capricious deity.
" Life is short and then we all will appear before a Holy God."
That's an extraordinary claim. Evidence is required. If not forthcoming that thing called Hitchen's razor applies. Slash. Your claim fails.
"You haven't done all you can to alleviate it. Each child born adds one more to the death toll eventually, and he gets to endure suffering along the way."
I have no idea what this means. You were referring to your children, I was referring to mine as a similar experience.
I certainly did do all I could to alleviate their suffering as children and young adults right up to their present day middle age when they discuss their troubles.
Please clarify what else, as a parent, step parent and foster carer I could do?
Edited for grammar and clarity.
@Old man shouts at clouds: "Please clarify what else, as a parent, step parent and foster carer I could do?"
Alleviate - make (suffering, deficiency, or a problem) less severe.
End the suffering, of course.
@ JF
As a parent I did all I could. Did you?
If you mean would I take the route of euthanasia rather than allow someone to suffer needlessly and wastefully?
Is that what you mean? If so don't try and lay traps or play word games.
I could have sent thoughts and prayers, but that would be fuck all use wouldn't it? They have never provably worked for anyone in the past and I cant see them working in the future.
@Jesus Follower: one person I could legitimately scream at who could actually help.
Who could actually help whom? Not the sick kid surely?
@Algebe: Who could actually help whom? Not the sick kid surely?
I see what you're saying. The third person in my sentences jumped around a bit. Forgive me, I'm new to forums and I'm working on communicating in text. Y'all are helping and I'm thankful for that. :)
It would remove the one person [God] I could legitimately scream at who could actually help. It [Atheism] would also remove any hope, especially had he [my son] died.
I hope that clears it up.
@Jesus Follower: It would remove the one person [God] I could legitimately scream at
For all your screaming, did god ever do anything tangible to help your baby? Or is it just a stress release mechanism? From my perspective, your god just looks like a personification of human emotions like fear, rage, and hope.
It's better to direct your energy toward finding the best possible medical resources and making sure that your kid gets them, and your rage toward anyone who gets in the way of that.
Torturing King David's new born baby to death over 7 days seems to fit the example. Any thoughts as to why a perfectly merciful deity that claims murder is objectively wrong would murder a new born baby because it was angry at the parents adultery?
What's objectively moral about that?
Old man shouts ...,
Based on my understanding of the fairy tale the story about Yahweh killing David's and Bathsheba's son was because Yahweh considered David's actions evil. It's basically a story that illustrates that the 4th Commandment applied to everyone, from the lowest person to the king.
The Fourth Commandment =
Exodus 34:19-20 (ERV) = "19 “A woman’s first baby always belongs to me. Even the first animals that are born from your cattle or sheep belong to me. 20 If you want to keep a donkey that is the first born, then you can buy it with a lamb. But if you don’t buy that donkey with a lamb, you must break the donkey’s neck. You must buy back all of your firstborn sons from me. No one should come before me without a gift."
According to the Jewish Babylonian Talmud David knocked up Bathsheba when she was 6 years old.
@ Diotrephes
" Based on my understanding "
It doesn't matter YHWH's motivation...he tortured a child...for no good reason. That is the origin of the thread. JF wanted to know i the bible where his imaginary friend tortured a baby and enjoyed it...
Hence the quote.
Old man shouts ...,
There's no celestial deity of any kind. The biblical God was simply the series of men who ruled the dominant Middle Eastern empire in ancient times. He was generically referred to as "God". It was just a man.
The Old Testament is basically an organized crime story. The criminals were the Levites. They came up with all kinds of rules to shake down the local yokels with and to enrich themselves. One popular scheme was to make the people pay when they had a first-born animal or child. If the people didn't pay then the goon squad would kill the animal or the kid. They used religion as a cover for their criminal activities. Hell, the Levites got a sweet retirement package while everyone else had to work to their last breath.
IMO it's wrong to think of it as a religious story with mean deities. It's a crime story with mean crooks. There are no deities, only men who claim to speak for the imaginary deities. Remember, the priests were powerful enough to control the kings.
@ Diotrephes
You certainly have a unique take on ancient history.
Old man shouts ...,
Ancient history is human behavior. An objective reading of the Old Testament clearly shows that guys like Moses and Aaron were simply gangsters who extorted money and goods from people to enrich themselves. You can wrap it in religious tissue paper with a fancy ribbon and put a bow on it but they were nothing but murderous gangsters.
Numbers 3:44-51 (NLT) =" 44 Then the Lord said to Moses, 45 “Take the Levites as substitutes for the firstborn sons of the people of Israel. And take the livestock of the Levites as substitutes for the firstborn livestock of the people of Israel. The Levites belong to me; I am the Lord. 46 There are 273 more firstborn sons of Israel than there are Levites. To redeem these extra firstborn sons, 47 collect five pieces of silver for each of them (each piece weighing the same as the sanctuary shekel, which equals twenty gerahs). 48 Give the silver to Aaron and his sons as the redemption price for the extra firstborn sons.”
49 So Moses collected the silver for redeeming the firstborn sons of Israel who exceeded the number of Levites. 50 He collected 1,365 pieces of silver on behalf of these firstborn sons of Israel (each piece weighing the same as the sanctuary shekel). 51 And Moses gave the silver for the redemption to Aaron and his sons, just as the Lord had commanded."
And they forced the people to give them the best produce and animals and to fund their retirement program. When people refused the thugs killed the babies.
@Diotrephes:
Nice analogy! "Pay us or Satan will burn you forever." "And if I don't pay?" "Jehovah will burn you forever."
@Dio Re: "IMO it's wrong to think of it as a religious story with mean deities. It's a crime story with mean crooks."
Now, if there was only some way to get everybody to see the truth and reasoning in that post you just made. Religion is simply about power and control. What very few (if any) positive effects it may have on a minimum of individuals is FAR OUTWEIGHED by the corruption it promotes and the countless atrocities committed under the protection of its shield during the past several hundred years. Sadly, I doubt the lunacy will fade away completely during my lifetime. However, I like to think it is at least gaining some momentum toward going out the door.
Tin-man,
Religion is big business. Consider the total number of people who depend on it for their cash. Architects, construction workers, song writers, garment workers, travel agents, book publishers, artists, hotel owners, etc. The con men in Arabia ensured a steady stream of income by making the haj part of Islam. For hundreds of years it was their main source of income. Even today a branch of the Saudi crime family (the "royals") run it as a family business.
Look at the number of people who go to the Vatican. I've been three times. It gives the Rome hotels and restaurants a steady cash flow. So countless people have personal interests in keeping the scam going. Without it they would have to get real jobs.
The same is true for all other religions. Look at Jerusalem.
I'll bet if there was a way to accurately measure people's religious beliefs it'll be a real miracle to find a million true believers for all religions out of the world's total population.
@JF Re: "Tin-man and AG: Killing and torturing are quite different and "for the fun of it" is a serious kicker. "
Aw, shit. My bad, JF. You are totally right. My sincerest apologies. God does not do those things for "the fun of it". He actually does the killing and torturing just for the helluvit. (He's easily bored, maybe? *shoulder shrug*) Or, in many/most cases, he does it when he is having a bad day and/or throwing a temper-tantrum because he didn't get his way about something. Therefore, kind sir, I agree it was very presumptuous of me to claim God did these things "for the fun of it." After all, who am I to say whether or not he enjoyed all that killing and torturing? Hell, considering how much he did over the years, it is more likely he just became desensitized to it and it bored him. Much better.
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