In light of the Mexican beer flu that has swept the nation I wondered.
do Christians really believe their god can be everything and anything ?
I've had this conversation recently with several believers.
After debating the subject back and forth for quite a while they all seem to get stuck on "You have to have faith"
So my quote from Sam Harris (look him up! he's awesome)
"Either god can do nothing to stop catastrophes, or he doesn't care to, or he doesn't exist.
god is either impotent, evil, or imaginary"
always makes me giggle
another common answer is "Its part of gods plan"
has anyone herd of a sensible answer to this?
I mean an answer that wasn't a cop-out.
if so please post it I would love to read them
Thank you
Attachments
Subscription Note:
Choosing to subscribe to this topic will automatically register you for email notifications for comments and updates on this thread.
Email notifications will be sent out daily by default unless specified otherwise on your account which you can edit by going to your userpage here and clicking on the subscriptions tab.
@Southern
HEY! You're back! About damn time... *chuckle*... Anyway...
Re: "has anyone herd of a sensible answer to this? I mean an answer that wasn't a cop-out."
Well, first thing off the top of my head would be if they actually had sensible and convincing answers, there likely would be no atheists. Sooooo.... *shrugging shoulders*... lol... In other words... Nope. I have yet to ever hear a reasonable/rational explanation to that little conundrum.
Good to see you back, by the way.
thank you sir!
I finally had a few free seconds lol
@Southern
"Either god can do nothing to stop catastrophes, or he doesn't care to, or he doesn't exist.
god is either impotent, evil, or imaginary."
Just for the sake of discussion!
Let's assume there is and always has been an omniscient power that created the Universe. Let's not attach any religious doctrines to the existence of the "God" that we are speculating about. The only rule is that there is a "devine omniscient creator" with the capacity to create the Universe and all that is in it.
I like the concept that the "Universe has no conscience". Thus, my postulate is that the "Creator" would not care. Why would there be a reason to care? Humans assign significance and value where a being capable of creating the Universe would not. IMO it would not be defined as evil. Maybe in human terms it would be closer to being pragmatic.
Let me pose a question:
Do you swerve your car to avoid running over a grasshopper in the road?
I doubt it. I do swerve to avoid running over a frog. But not a Grasshopper. That is about the relationship between a "creator" and a human. I doubt a creator would even notice us.
Replying to;
https://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/can-god-be-all-do-all...
The Epicurus problem of pain is a false dilemma (trilemma). A logical fallacy.
It presumes there is no morally good reason to cause or allow something called "a catastrophe".
Can God create a world where nobody knows the meaning of the word "catastrophe".
Yes. But He didn't. He did the opposite.
Is God indifferent to the human experience of pleasure and pain?
No. He deliberately created us with the ability to experience both. To the extent that you presume to blame God for our ability to distinguish between pleasure and pain, you must necessarily infer that God did so intentionally. Therefore He must have had a reason.
Was His reason sufficient? Is it objectively immoral that God would intentionally choose to cause/permit such a state of affairs. The anti-theist simply asserts this as a brute claim. But if/since God does have a good reason, then the trilemma goes away.
Epicurus's Paradox is a dilemma only if you believe in the existence of a god. He was no atheist.
As for the cause of global or personal catastrophes, or even for pleasure or pain there is no god to blame or venerate.
Shit happens. And it happens in such a way in this reality, in just the very manner you would expect for a reality, in which no gods exist and in which no pleas for protection are ever answered.
You have presented unevidenced assumptions and strawman arguments but then the early Christians promoted the initial demonisation of Epicurus distorting his writings that expounded the virtues of piety, honesty, frugality, modesty, and fraternity as expressions of atheism, hedonism, gluttony, debauchery and cowardice. Old habits die hard.
An atheist can make no "brute claim" that your god is immoral or the cause of good or bad things, because an atheist rejects the claim your god even exists and hence the dilemma goes away.
@Grinseed
Doesn't the atheist parent have to answer the exact same dilemma questions?
Why does the atheist parent bring children into a world where they know that child will experience suffering?
1. Are atheist parents indifferent to the pain their child will feel when that child falls off the playground equipment?
2. Is the atheist parent powerless to prevent their child attempting to climb onto the playground swing?
3. Is there no such thing as an atheist parent?
Which of the above three is right? None are necessarily right because its a false trilemma.
@Grinseed: Why does the atheist parent bring children into a world where they know that child will experience suffering?
Because every human being born has the potential for great joy and triumphs, as well as suffering. Because every human being, including atheists, is an animal with an animal's instincts for procreation. Because creating a child together can be one of the most profound expressions of love between two human beings.
Why does a religious parent bring a child into a world that they believe to be a vale of tears on the path to eternal bliss? Why not just kill children at birth to save them walking through that valley? Apparently purgatory has been demolished.
LOL. Ummmm no. I guess you missed grins point. The parodox assumes two things, both of which are unevidenced in reality. These are the only things that make this dilemma false. Show me objectively that your version of a god exists, or that the religious construct of evil (or good for that matter) exists...if they don't, guess what, the dilemma is moot. If you want to assume your belief is true, without objective evidence...then you are going to have to struggle with this dilemma...one that leads to a world without a god. Tough for you.
You seem to be confused...Atheists and theists are the same species, just with different beliefs. All living things in this universe, atheist and theists alike, have one root requirement, to survive...irrelivent of belief. The objective evidence demonstrating this fact of life is immutable. Do you need to add a god to the equation, for this life trait to continue? No. Then, it is irrelivent to life. I look at religion, as your favorite cup of coffee...you can add cream, or sugar, or sweetener, or extra cremma, to taste, making it the most palatable and enjoyable for you...but it does not change the fact that it is coffee. Atheists just like their coffee strait up.
@ Algebe and doG
You have both expressed my thoughts perfectly. Thanks for saving me the effort.
Lion IRC: RE" "It presumes there is no morally good reason to cause or allow something called "a catastrophe"
It makes no such assertion. Please show me the word catastrophe in the problem Epicurus poses.
RE: "Is God indifferent to the human experience of pleasure and pain?
No. He deliberately created us with the ability to experience both." And then being all knowing, intentionally inflicted the horrors of them, in the worst ways imaginable, upon us... So he is a idiot and could not think of a better way to do things? I'M MORE MORAL THAN YOUR FUCKING GOD.
I have a good reason to butcher your family. I will infect your mother with brain cancer, you father with a flesh eating virus and I will have a neighbor go insane, rape and then slit your sister's throat. Your brother will be sold into slavery where he becomes a sex slave in the Middle East, and you will be fixated on fucking donkeys for the rest of your life. Why? Well, that is none of your business. Trust me it is all for I know best.
FUCK YOUR GOD. FUCK YOUR WEAK ASS ATTEMPT AT A REBUTTAL. YOU ARE MUCH BETTER AT THAT THING YOU DO WITH DONKEYS THAN YOU ARE AT LOGICAL DISCOURSE.
Great news everyone, and I'm so glad that I get to bring it to you.
The pandemic will be over soon.
That's right - read below.
Holy Father, what did you ask for when you prayed in the two Roman churches?
“I asked the Lord to stop the epidemic: Lord, stop it with your hand. That’s what I prayed for.”
So, we really just need to wait a bit for God to get to it, He is busy you know.
Then, back to it world.
Welcome back Southern Atheist, it's nice to see you again.
Here is my logic.
So you must believe for miracles to work?
Yes.
So make a prayer, for example, have a hundred dollars fall out of the sky.
It doesn't work that way.
So prayers are not 100%?
Umm .. yes.
So prayers are more like a roll of the dice or a flip of a coin? Dice is 6-1, a coin is 50/50.
No
So what are the odds? Because if miracles can not be reliable, then they have much worse odds than a flip of the coin.
@Southern Atheist.
"do Christians really believe their god can be everything and anything ?"
Catholics seem to think so.
At my catholic boys school, I was taught that God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent.
As for the Sam Harris quote, first time I saw that view was by Epicurus , written a couple of thousand years ago. Be willing to bet Harris knew that.
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
― Epicurus
None of the Abrahamic religions has ever been able to justify Evil or suffering, human or animal as far as I'm aware. .
Below a short humanist response to a heap of stuff. Without comment(animated)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nUnYsBwB5k
To be fair, a christian explanation of the problem of evil and suffering , also without comment . (three times longer than the humanist)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QLtWO5Sxz0
Well, that is the default position of people whose beliefs are shown to be holding an empty bag.
I like Sam Harris, but that quote is ripping off Epicurus, and he constructed this argument long before humans created the christian religion.
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
Yes, firstly how can a being that knows everything have a plan? if a deity exists that is omniscient then there is only one outcome, that is axiomatic, but it is fun to watch theists like Breezy do mental cartwheels to avoid this fact. Secondly, the theist claim that a perfectly merciful deity exists, is directly contradicted by it having a "plan" that demands and causes ubiquitous suffering.
Southern Atheist: If god can do anything, can he make himself completely unnecessary? If he can not, he is not all powerful. If he can, he is completely unnecessary.
@ Southern Atheist: {another common answer is "Its part of gods plan"}
~~~~~~~
It seems to me, that the believer means: "If I looked at it rationally, I'd have to put limits on this god in which I believe, or else I'd have to hate the god, so I must, in an obligatory way, claim that it's not the sh*t it sounds like, but is really good-oh, because "God" is defined as good, and I can't allow myself to deny that".
~~~~~~~
@ Southern Atheist: {has anyone herd of a sensible answer to this? I mean an answer that wasn't a cop-out}
~~~~~~~
Sorry, no.
~~~~~~~
Mutorc
Southern Atheist wrote:
I looked him up. He's not that awesome. #unoriginal #copycat #yawn #Epicurus
Want me to post a copy of a rebuttal of that false dilemma by someone even more 'awesome' than Harris? #Theodicy101
@Southern Atheist Re: Lion Insufferable Rectal Constipation
Hey, Southern, wanna have some fun?... Roll Lion over onto his back and start scratching lightly along the lower side of his ribcage. It's just so damn adorable and hilarious when one of his hind legs starts reflexively kicking... Gotta be careful, though, because sometimes he loses all bladder control and tends to tinkle a bit if he gets too excited. No biggie if he does, though. Nothing a little soap and water can't handle.
Donny boy thinks he's god a zinger. I hope it's better than the last one that clearly demonstrated you like to have sex with donkeys.
@Cog Re: "I hope it's better than the last one that clearly demonstrated you like to have sex with donkeys."
Oh, hardy har-har... How many times do I have to tell you they were INFLATABLE donkeys? They were not real donkeys. Funny how you "conveniently forget" to mention that part... *annoyed sigh*... And besides, the inflatable donkeys are STILL far better than some of the things we have all seen you do with a banana. Judge much?... *sticking out tongue*...
TIN: "inflatable donkey?" That's just sick. He doesn't even have the balls to walk down the street and find himself a real donkey? He opts for one of these?
https://www.pinterest.co.kr/pin/207517495316533358/
A real coward. He wants the joy of sex wit furry animals but is unwilling to risk being seen in public with them. My mother warned me about people like him!!!
@ Cog
Your mother had very intimate knowledge of people like him. *looks skyward whilst whistling gently* *kicks gravel with toe of sneaker* But, yes, *ahem*, cy l8r "son" ....................grabs trike and cycles away singing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_wso8Zo7-A
OMS: I think you posted the wrong song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUN6tRgO_Q8
@Cog Re: "My mother warned me about people like him!!!"
HIM???... *puzzled look*.... You mean Lion?... You mean you were not talking about ME and donkeys this whole time?.... *starting to fidget uncomfortably*... Err... Uh... Well, of course I knew that already... *nervous laugh*... You know, I was just, uh, playing along with you on that, right? I mean I was just joking about the whole inflatable donkey thing... *looking at watch*... Oh, gee. Look at the time. Gotta go... *quickly exits room*...
It's always claims with theists, they never just post this illusive evidence or arguments , this that?
Theodicy is not an issue for atheists or atheism, that is axiomatic. It is a problem for theists who claim a perfectly merciful deity exists, yet allows or even designed and created a world with ubiquitous suffering.
I have asked, and Apollo, are there any circumstances under which torturing a new born baby to death could be considered.moral?
Do you have an answer?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Leyn-oS5ASI
Lion said “theodicy” and it reminded me of this...
Well, its funny how woo woo gods never do any work themselves...human reaction is always needed to attribute things to a woo woo magic feiry. If a woo woo magic palooka was real, you would think it could do something on its own, by itself...but at no time in history has this occurred. Its like woo wooness is a function of people, not of a separate entity. Cmon, your woo wooness, step up and do one thing in history on your own. Waiting...for a stupid power like you, to show yourself, and not depend on humans to perpetuate your existence...c'mon you dumb fluck.
@David
"So prayers are more like a roll of the dice or a flip of a coin? Dice is 6-1, a coin is 50/5"
---and there you go missing the point again
God answers every single prayer he receives, and the answer is always 'No'
When I was 12 I prayed for a bike. Dad told me it doesn't work that way.---So I went out and stole a bike, then prayed for forgiveness.--As sublime coincidence would have it , the answer to such prayers is always Yes. But you're supposed to return the bike . I didn't so I'm probably going to hell.
--Like any organised religion, the humbuggery and batshit craziness of Christianity becomes apparent whenever one hears an apologist in full flight.
Trivia :Two things I bet you didn't know about God:
(1) He's English
(2 ) His name is Hughie. It's also his son's middle name. Haven't you ever heard the expression "Jesus H Christ" ? Now you know.
.