Authorship of the Gospels
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You forgot selling indulgences. Of course it could be argued they don't belong on your list since the Church has started peddling indulgences again.
"You forgot selling indulgences. Of course it could be argued they don't belong on your list since the Church has started peddling indulgences again."
Indeed, not to mention the canonisation of that dreadful Albanian nun, and the rank dishonesty of the claims for miracles the RCC used to justify it, so you have to see the irony of JoC hurling around accusations at atheists of dishonesty. Or how about the decades of the RCC's criminal conspiracy to hide and cover up the institutional child abuse that is endemic within it.
JoC: "That's actually misrepresenting the point of the guy in the video."
What one would expect from a Religious Absolutist. The guy in the video is misrepresenting the actual true truth, just like all other religitards.
rmfr
The names were randomly assigned to the books. The authorship is unknown.
It's now written inside the cover of every bible. You need to stop a moment and grasp how desperate these rationalisations you're using appear to any objective person.
@ JoC
Want to know the truth about the authorship of the gospels?
I have a time machine and went back in time as part of an experiment. I wrote the four gospels and the acts, purposefully making it seem as if 15 different people wrote them. I even talked to a local scribe by the name of Valdemar to pose as Paul and use the five gospels to write letters all over the place.
Prove me wrong.
rmfr
Simon of Cyrene is supposed to be understood as referring to Simon bar Kokhba, the leader of the 131 ad Jewish revolt against the Romans ... who was lauded as the "Messiah" by the religious leaders (although he himself didn't make that claim).There was a previous major revolt by the Jews in 116 ad starting at Cyrene. Simon of Cyrene had two sons, Alexander and Rufus ... Simon bar Kokhba also had a son called Rufus (who led the revolt for a couple of years after his father's death)
OOPS.Zombie thread.
Hi, i add my little grain of salt about the interesting question. It seems the consensus is that the authors are anonymous.
http://jesushistoryproject.com/new-testament/
It is a consensus that the authors of the gospels are anonymous. Arguing else wise is simply ignorant. The bible itself says the gospels are anonymous. We know half the new testament is forged. " virtually half the New Testament was written by impostors taking on the names of apostles like Paul. At least according to Bart D. Ehrman, a renowned biblical scholar, who makes the charges in his new book “Forged.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63QvWMBxsW4
"It is a consensus that the authors of the gospels are anonymous. Arguing else wise is simply ignorant."
- There was once a time when scientific consensus was that the Sun revolved around the Earth. Truth is not a democracy.
Can you cite for me a Christian Biblical scholar who says that the NT is forged? Bart Ehrman is a known critic of Christianity and with such a bias, no doubt he'll try to cast a shadow on the Bible. So I wouldn't be so quick to jump on what he says. Explain to me then why the gospels were given names but whoever gave them names decided not to give a name to Hebrews? Also, why Luke and Mark who even in the tradition of the church, never met Jesus.
The simplest explanation for all these simply favors traditional authorship.
Bart Ehrman is a renowned Biblical Historian as is Richard Carrier. No one is against your bible. Your bible defeats its' self with facts. The FACTS, the Historical evidence, DOES NOT MATCH UP.
*No exodus
*No Moses
*No Evidence for Jesus
*Biblical Contradictions
*The entire book of Luke.
*6 forged letters of attributed to Paul
* Mark 16 is Forged.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_16
* The woman caught in adultery is a forgery "the earliest manuscripts of the Gospel of John do not contain this beloved passage. Indeed, the first manuscript to contain the story is from around 400 C.E. Around 4% of Greek manuscripts that include the passage place it in locations other than John 8:1-8:11; the earliest of these is from around the ninth and tenth centuries C.E."
This list goes on "HALF THE NEW TESTAMENT IS FORGED. "
"BIBLICAL SCHOLAR" Says, "Half of New Testament is Forged."
By John Blake, CNN
"NOTE: These are Christian Bible Scholars telling us this not Muslims, open your mind and heart."
"Half the New Testament was written by impostors taking on the names of apostles like Paul. At least according to Bart D. Ehrman, a renowned Biblical Scholar, who makes the charges in his new book “Forged.”
At least 11 of the 27 New Testament books are forgeries.
* The New Testament books attributed to Jesus’ disciples could not have been written by them because they were illiterate.
* Many of the New Testament’s forgeries were manufactured by early Christian leaders trying to settle theological feuds.
Were Jesus’ disciples ‘illiterate peasants?’
http://www.thedeenshow.com/bible-scholar-says-half-of-new-testament-is-f...
V.S.
Please cite the link for this. You have a history of dishonesty so I'd like to see this for myself. Thanks.
“Gospel and Gospels.” The Catholic Encyclopedia: An International Work of Reference on the Constitution, Doctrine, Discipline, and History of the Catholic Church, Edited by Charles George Herbermann, vol. 6, Encyclopedia Press, 1913, pp. 656.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Can you give an example?
@ Nyar
Cheeky fucker ain't he? Now I have to find something to stop the irony burn from reading his comment....."iced water! Stat!"
I've read the full text of the part. It doesn't actually say anything definitive. As an encyclopedia, it aims to record facts. All it says is that simply because Ireneus, Clement of Alexandria, and the Muratorian Fragment say those where there, it does not follow that they were always there. It might follow that the titles had been there towards the earlier part of the 2nd century but it doesn't follow that it had always been there.
Guess what the encyclopedia doesn't record? Tertullian of Carthage (AD 180) and Papias of Hierapolis (AD 125). While Ireneus, Clement and the Muratorian Fragment give evidence of authorship in the 2nd century, we have two more sources which were writing in different parts of the Roman empire and during different times. Thus, I could make a commutative case which the Catholic Encyclopedia (which was written more than 100 years ago) might not have had back then.
Are you saying the Catholic Church was wrong in 1913 (or 100 years ago more or less)?
@ JoC
Attestations and ascribing authorship of anonymous writings some 100 years and more after circulation is not evidence of anything except the early Pauline church seeking authority for its versions of the gospels.
Lets look at Irenaeus: He wrote his two surviving works as a polemic against the Gnostics. He maintained that the Gnosts (although in possession of their own supportive texts) were not preaching the true message. Irenaeus was arguing that the Roman sponsored Pauline version of christianity was the true path despite the success of Marcion and the Gnostics. To bolster his scriptural argument he assigned authorship in about 180 CE...let that sink in JoC, 180 CE....see your problem? there is no unbroken line of gospel attestation from the first, In fact nothing until the 2nd Century as you so cleverly have discovered and written about. Nothing. You are confounding your own claims every time you research.
Irenaeus is also the earliest attestation that the Gospel of John was written by John the Apostle, and that the Gospel of Luke was written by Luke, the companion of Paul.Wiki. Citations available on the page.
Muratorian Fragment: Is just a (partial) list of texts accepted by the early church. The earliest date for its writing is set at about 170CE the same time as all the gospels were ascribed authorship. The only comment in the Muratorian Fragment about authorship is that of the gospel of John. It is not evidence as the Fragment is late 2nd century and not contemporary to the actual writing of the gospel of John.
What is interesting about this list is that it does not contain 1 or 2 Peter, Hebrews or James suggesting that their 2nd or 3rd century origin is very likely as I have said in previous threads. ..
Clement: well if you read anything of his you would, as a good catholic, be stopping your eyes and running away. His beliefs were, shall we say eccentric? and definitely not mainstream Early Church.
Tertullian of Carthage: Funny you should cite this person. Yes , like you he believed in the authorship of the gospels....because it gave him the authority to attack the Marcionites (are you seeing a common thread in the mid to late 2nd Century yet? ) but he produces no evidence just a bare assertion. Oh, BTW did you know he was a Montanist ,JoC, that should give your good orthodox catholic soul a shudder every time you write his name!
Papias of Hierapolis: unfortunately his works have not survived except in a couple of short extracts. You have quoted him as someone who ascribed authorship of the gospels to the apostles. That is not the case. You should do some in depth reading before you start waving your flags and doing a silly dance. There is no evidence, and scholars are divided, on what texts Papias was writing about. Read more.
Keep researching JoC, even though you only skim to find confirmation of your own bias, then get debunked when the whole books or writings are researched. If you keep it up then the conclusions that nearly every scholar has come to about the authorship of the Gospels and the life of the jesus figure will solidify in your mind and you can abandon your stance of historical authority for your beliefs.
The gospels are anonymous. There is no contemporary evidence for a jesus figure as described in the gospels. None.
If you want to find evidence of the authorship of the gospels then you need solid third party corroboration from the 1st century. Otherwise you are only producing historical evidence of the start of a tradition. An erroneous tradition that persists to this day.
(Edit Tags)
@ JoC
Ultimately, if you do some actual true research, the gospels are nothing more than faerie tales written to promote a new version of Judaism. Basically, the entire Bible is just an anthology of plagiarized faerie tales from myths far older than the Bible. You just prefer to keep yourself blind to true truth.
Stay blind if you wish, I could care less. Just always remind me to never trust anything you design/build as an engineer.
rmfr
Tertullian of Carthage (AD 180) : Writing 160 years after the imagined death of Jesus. What in the fuck would anyone care what he wrote. He was a Christian apologist who wrote extensively condemning the Gnostic faiths and trying to justify the trinarian point of view. (The life of Tertullian is based almost wholly on information written by men living over a century after him and from obscure references in his own works. ) WE KNOW LITTLE TO NOTHING ABOUT THE MAN. We do know he CREATED HIS OWN RELIGION AND WAS NOT A MAINSTREAM CHRISTIAN OF HIS TIME - "He eventually broke with them to found his own sect, a group that existed until the 5th century in Africa."
http://www.ntcanon.org/Tertullian.shtml
What you need to do is get back on track and prove the Gospels were written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Still waiting for evidence.
Me too. I am also waiting to see the evidence.
Cognostic: "What you need to do is get back on track and prove the Gospels were written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Still waiting for evidence."
Even with my limited research, which I still consider amateurish compared to Old Man's, there is no evidence this Heysoos Lich Virgin ever existed. An unknown, perhaps homeless bastard child, street evangelist who gathered a gang of thugs and prostitutes, yes. Son of God, no.
Remember one fact, the gospels are NOT evidence. They are a plagiarized myth/legend making a preposterous claim with no evidence.
rmfr
Re: JoC to Nyar - "You have a history of dishonesty..."
*eyes blinking rapidly*.... *head twitching repeatedly*.... *oily smoke streaming from ears*..... *red flashing warning lights blinking furiously*.... *calm and soothing automated voice announcement activated*.... "Warning...Warning... Central processor overload... Warning... Warning... Core meltdown in progress.... Warning... Warning.... "... *foul stench of electrical fire fills room*....
JoC: "Please cite the link for this. You have a history of dishonesty so I'd like to see this for myself. Thanks."
What is that saying about glass houses? For someone who has an overwhelming propensity for posting dishonest assertions, you have the gall to say anyone here has a "history of dishonesty"?
rmfr
The only posters with a history of dishonesty on here are visiting theists.
He cited the link "Catholic Encyclopedia." It's an active search engine. Input: "Authors of the Gospels."
New Testament "Christians" were splintering into numerous factions three seconds after Jesus died. There was the big split between the Jews and the Gentiles, led by Peter and Paul. Then there was the split between the works and the faith groups.
As it says in 2 Peter 2:1-3 (CEV) = "Sometimes false prophets spoke to the people of Israel. False teachers will also sneak in and speak harmful lies to you. But these teachers don’t really belong to the Master who paid a great price for them, and they will quickly destroy themselves. 2 Many people will follow their evil ways and cause others to tell lies about the true way. 3 They will be greedy and cheat you with smooth talk. But long ago God decided to punish them, and God doesn’t sleep."
And don't forget the fight between John and Diotrephes in 3 John 1:9-10 (CEV) =" 9 I wrote to the church. But Diotrephes likes to be the number-one leader, and he won’t pay any attention to us. 10 So if I come, I will remind him of how he has been attacking us with gossip. Not only has he been doing this, but he refuses to welcome any of the Lord’s followers who come by. And when other church members want to welcome them, he puts them out of the church."
Paul said that Christians have to follow his doctrine.
Galatians 1:8 (CEV)= "I pray that God will punish anyone who preaches anything different from our message to you! It doesn’t matter if that person is one of us or an angel from heaven."
But some of his buddes kicked him to the curb.
2 Timothy 4:10 (NOG) = "Demas has abandoned me. He fell in love with this present world and went to the city of Thessalonica. Crescens went to the province of Galatia, and Titus went to the province of Dalmatia."
JoC - You have a history of dishonesty...
Wed, 02/20/2019 - 19:14
Nyarlathotep "Can you give an example?"
Has JoC even tried to justify his appalling accusation yet by citing even a single example? I have not noticed Nyarlathotep ever post anything dishonest, the same however cannot be said for many of the theists who post on here.
JoC: "Please cite the link for this. You have a history of dishonesty so I'd like to see this for myself. Thanks."
Just another claim from a theist without any evidence to back it up.
I got a dollar that says, you never get a link citing Tertullian of Carthage (AD 180) supporting the idea that the Gospels were written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, without being followed or preceded by some sort of amorphous disclaimer, calling it a personal belief, etc...
"I'll buy that for a dollar."
rmfr
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