We dated the universe at 13.7 billion years old. The sun is 4.5 billion years old the earth under 4 billion and mankind about 200000 years.
So if we are gods greatest special creation why all the time wasted? 9.2 billion years before our sun was made how can we be important. And over 3 billion years the earth was around before we arrived.
Given the bible is evidence of the christian god. The bible shows god is petty spiteful vindictive sadistic extremely jealous and does not care about life. The flood, just because he didnt like what we did with our 'free will' (note it does not say what we did to deserve it) he wiped out over 99% of all life on earth. Maybe the adults did bad stuff but what did the animals do? What did the children do?? In all likelihood if the bibles real then he probably wiped them out just for not worshiping him.
So justify your god even if hes real that god does not deserve anything.
Hell, eternity in hell for ANY crime is just unbelievably sadistic. To sentence all non believers to hell when its his fault we dont believe since he made us unable to accept stories without evidence.
Hows that a just and merciful god.
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God doesn't have to be moral to exist..
Yet he wants us to be best at morals or at the very least know him and worship him? The assumption that he watches, and acts, are absurd.
I did not say he had to i asked you to justify worshiping him.
"We dated the universe at 13.7 billion years old."
that is a correct statement, we do sometimes date it like that but it is an assumption.
In reality we don't know how old the universe is. The red shift only counts for the big bang theory dating,
The big bang might not be the creation of the universe but just the creation of a galaxy or creation of galaxies around a black hole.
The universe in most probability is much older then that.
Which makes god even more wasteful if he existed as the Christians believe he does.
Yea the facts being reasonably sound unless proven otherwise leaves a 9.2 billion year gap between the big bang and our sun not to mention the billions of years from the start of earth to modern man.
Science has reasonable logical answers for this question i wanted to know how theists would answer it.
Practice makes perfect?
Were I god, and the creator of everything... I'd probably take a few billion years to get the hang of things.
Lol, it is surprising that there's a lack of theists answers here - they seem to want to jump in on every other topic!
Ive never gotten theists to answer these questions hence the topic name.
Hey guys! Only just noticed this topic so now there's a theist in the discussion :)
Great question. First, if you read Genesis properly (get to know the original culture etc) then it doesn't make a claim about how old the earth or the universe is. No problem with it being 13.8bn years old. The Genesis 1 creation story is more describing how God gave it PURPOSE - ie ordered it so that it works well for humans, a fact which is difficult to dispute. It's not a scientific article (they didn't know the earth was round at that point and they thought the rain was held back by a solid "expanse"). It's not describing how things happened scientifically - it's making theological points. John H Walton has done some great work on all this.
With that in mind there's no problem for God to use the process of evolution to create life. Anyone who believes in God and loves science ends up with that perspective, called theistic evolution or evolutionary theism. I believe God was involved in the process along the way, to create the amazing diversity of life, and also to help it lead to us. Historians and scientists speak of a handful of key moments in the history of the universe that made it possible to get to where we are now. Stars exploding (produced more elements), earth's formation and the solar system, the birth of life, the death of the dinosaurs (allowed mammals to proliferate), collective learning, to name a few. This is kind of what Genesis 1 is saying, in more poetic and ancient terms. Genesis 1 communicates the beauty of life and nature, that it's all a gift for us because God wanted to, and that we should therefore look after it and continue ordering it and developing it to make it more and more beautiful and useful.
I think the point about the billions of years before us being wasted is a little nonsensical. Time is part of how things work in our universe, and God is not limited to time. So it makes no difference how long it took for the process to lead to here.
"The Genesis 1 creation story is more describing how God gave it PURPOSE - ie ordered it so that it works well for humans, a fact which is difficult to dispute."
Is it? Seems to me exactly the opposite: We are ordered for it through evolution, not the other way around.
Yep you're right. Evolution makes sense of the data brilliantly. Genesis 1 doesn't discount God using evolution.
The point was god isnt limited to time so could simply have made everything instantly why wait.
Speaking of gods abilities why make life at all theists often claim life is a test suffering makes ones true self apparent. But gods omnipotent he wouldn't need a test.
His omnipotence brings up another point he knew the bible would be ridiculous and 90% of all humans would disbelieve it so why did he not give clear concise instructions maybe including knowledge we couldn't have had or at least not including so much incorrect statements.
How do you guys keep track of all the conversations you're in? I only just remembered this one.
Lmale do you have kids?
I'm guessing you wouldn't explain complex maths to a 2 year old. Or get a 5 year old to set up your nation's legal system. Or give a kid some matches and chemicals and tell them to do some science. It's actually a crime in some respects to expose children to things beyond their physical, mental or emotional capabilities There are some things that we can't understand or handle unless we've lived a little and matured intellectually. There are some things we can't understand as collective humanity until we've grown through history. You can actually see the progression even throughout the Bible. Moses: "Do good=blessed, do bad=cursed." Jeremiah: "Now hold up, that doesn't seem to work all the time?" Jesus: "Look, basically all of those rules were really about loving God and loving your neighbour. If you're doing that you're all good." We've still got a long way to go. It's not a reflection on God's nature (omnipotence etc) but on how we are as humans.
When idiots were writing genesis iny name and getting it all wrong im sure is say something.
When idiots wrote genesis and wrote the world was flat and the sun orbitted the earth your god would have seen the billiobs of people that quite worshiping him because his book was wrong.
Remember your god is an evil dictator obsessed with being worshipped so im pretty sure hed tell them to fix it while supposedly telling them stuff to write.
Shit thats alot of mistakes lol damn iphone my fingers are to big for the keys.
No worries. I'm shit on a mobile too :)
Dude I am glad your back. It is nice having a theist I can conduct reasonable conversations with on the site, your presence it truly appreciated at least by me here.
Thanks Z. Nice to be here. I can't get on every day, but I'll try to stay connected. I always like having conversations with people who think differently to me :)
No, Genesis isn't about science. Obviously they got the science wrong, but God was more interested in other things. Plus the sense through the Bible is that God wants us to discover the wonders of the universe for ourselves, like children do.
The eternity in Hell never made much sense to me. So we're given, say, a maximum of 100 years or so (average somewhere in the 70s) to learn about this god. Yet if we fail due to its installation of free will and thought, we spend eternity being tortured.
Less than a century to get it right, but an eternity if we mess up?
Eternal hell is not a rightful punishment i would not even condemn hitler to eternal hell despite everything he did let alone a moral atheist.
I mean like a million years tops for hitler then let him go to purgatory but never heaven.
These christians just never consider what eternity really means.
The question is,
What bad deeds could you possibly do in this world that makes eternal torture a reasonable punishment.
Eternal torture for a finite crime is an evil act.
Only a brainwashed individual can view this as a good deed.
The new testament doesn't communicate the message of "eternity in hell." That kind of dualistic hell/heaven afterlife thinking came centuries later. I completely agree it doesn't make sense. Jesus was all about restoring and recreating the earth and making it better, not destroying it and taking everyone somewhere else.
So many topics in this one thread! Even I am having a hard time keeping them straight. I get that the universe has been around for a long time and I still don't understand what took so long to make mankind IF that is the way it happened.
I like you presence here beneames, it would be very sad without you.
Again, with the no eternal hell in the Gospels?
Mark 9:43
"If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out."
Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Come on, lets be honest, most Christians do not accept the existence of hell just because the church says so but because the gospels themselves promote this idea.
You may dismiss everything as fiction that you don't like(cherry picking) but the reality of it is that 99% of Christians don't think like you.
I might try to do the same with Satan:
Everything wrong Satan did was just fiction added later by God.
He just wanted to be loved and defend the humans as equals as gods.
There is quite a different story about the devil being one of the gods that supported humans.(symbol of the snake)
He just happened to loose the battle against the other gods.
Then their leader that we call GOD punished him and kept us humans as their slave and servant.(we should fear and love god)
That we should worship him or go suffering with Satan.
I think that this story fits more the actions of your god rather then your story Beneames.
Thanks Jeff, I like chatting with you all. I have more frustrating conversations with other Christians generally ;)
Yes I know 90% of Christians don't see it like I do, but I'm ok with that because my position is the one held by the theologians, historians and Bible scholars that I really respect. People like NT Wright, Walter Brueggemann, Eugene Peterson, John H Walton. These guys have done decades of careful work on the culture and theology of the Bible and I'm happy to be in a minority with them. The vast majority of Christians are getting their info from unreliable sources (mostly dodgy preaching and sickeningly popular "Christian life/self help" books). More often than not they're reading the Bible the wrong way.
I'm not dismissing the fiction bits in the Bible - like I don't dismiss Shakespeare and Tolkien. You just treat them differently to, say, a history textbook (which actually is always subjective too).
Those verses you keep quoting are apocalyptic imagery, not literal prophecy. 1st Century stuff. Jesus' listeners would have been familiar with it. We use colourful negative imagery when we talk too. eg. "You're screwed. You're shit. Take a hike. You're walking on thin ice. I wouldn't say that to her, but feel free - it's your funeral. You're going to crash and burn." We don't mean it literally, but that might be less clear for people 2000 years from now in a completely different culture.
"Those verses you keep quoting are apocalyptic imagery, not literal prophecy."
Mark 9:43
"If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out."
I see no apocalyptic imagery nor literal prophecy.
Jesus is just explaining that sin is worse then the physical pain you can endure in this world since hell is worse.
If you get any other meaning from this, you have issues and your minority are simply wrong.
"We use colourful negative imagery when we talk too."
Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
We do use colourful negative imagery today but this is not "colourful negative imagery", it is simply a statement of warning to those on his left. "Colourful negative imagery" is never so long and explained, it tends to be short and quickly returning to the main concept, just like your examples.
You can see clearly a "colourful negative imagery" from the context of the sentence/paragraph.
Jesus really meant those words, there was no "colourful negative imagery" involved here.
If there was, please explain them, since you are just generalizing to explain things that are contradictory. Thus everything which does not fit your idea of Jesus must be "colourful negative imagery".
If the concept of Hell was not well established with the people hearing Jesus then the "colourful negative imagery" would not make sens at all. Don't you think? How can you make a "colourful negative imagery" of hell if hell was something not known by Christians?
There is no hell in the old testament(jews), only the new testament creates hell for sinners.
As I told you, you are not thinking deep enough.
I think YOU are getting your info from unreliable sources.
The concept of hell is a well established concept though Christianity.
This is ironic that an atheist must explain the concept of hell to a christian that doesn't believe in hell.
It used to be that Christians would literally burn atheists for not believing in hell.
Edit:
physical pain/Emotional Pain
Though I think he meant that you should cut ties with the people that hinder your faith even if it is someone dear to you.
The word translated "hell" here is the word "Gehenna," which was a place outside jerusalem where they dumped the bodies of people who'd died. Then they burned them. Hence it was a place of "eternal" smouldering fires and deep sadness.
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